October 10, 2022

JF2959: Navigating Today’s Market in the Midwest ft. Logan Freeman

Logan Freeman grew up in the Midwest and got his first job bailing hay at 14 years old. He quickly developed a strong work ethic that led him to excel in athletics. After a successful collegiate football career, Logan played in the NFL, but ultimately decided it wasn’t the right career path for him. Soon after returning to school to earn his master’s degree, he discovered the world of real estate investing. 


Today, Logan is the co-founder and chief development officer of FTW Investments LLC. He is also the managing broker for XChangeCRE, and he is a GP of 1,300 units across four states totaling $130M in AUM. In this episode, Logan discusses the progress and growth the Kansas City market is currently experiencing, how the current market factors are affecting 1031 buyer demand and seller supply, and the piece of advice he received as a college football player that he still swears by today. 



Logan Freeman | Real Estate Background



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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed and I'm here with Logan Freeman. Logan is joining us from Kansas City, Missouri. He's the co-founder and chief development officer of FTW Investments, and managing broker for XChange CRE. They focus on large-scale commercial real estate assets. Their current portfolio, they're GPS of over 1,300 units across four states, totaling 130 million in assets under management. Logan, can you start us off with a little bit more about your background on what you're currently focused on?

Logan Freeman: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, excited to be here. And my background is pretty typical - Midwestern boy, grew up in a blue collar family. and I always like to say that my mom really helped me understand the value of a dollar. So when I was 14 years old, I started working. And you might ask yourself, "What can a 14 year old do?" Well, in Missouri, you can bale hay; meaning I could walk around a field and throw hay on the back of a trailer. Being a little bit taller though, I got to stand on the actual trailer and stack all of that hay. So anyways, long story short, that made me a little tougher in my career. And then I transitioned that into working at a catering business when I was 15 years old, and started doing dishes, and sweeping floors. And the reason I was doing this is because I saw my mom working two jobs to put food on the table to really support her family. And I could see in her makeup that she wanted a better life for us children if we could get there. And it was it was a great spot living in Jefferson City, but that instilled in me a work ethic that then sparked a fire that said, "Okay, what are my limits? And can I push up against those?" So I translate that into athletics. I had a successful high school and collegiate career, and just briefly played football in the NFL, decided that wasn't the right thing for me, went back to school, finished my master's program, got another job making 265 cold calls a day, and turned my classroom to classroom on wheels. And I really started listening to Joe and other people on the podcast, and things like that. And that really opened my eyes to real estate investing.

I've been at it for about five years now. We have a brokerage that we helped 1031 exchange; buyers find their off market properties, and we are GPs and operators of multifamily, office, industrial and retail shopping center. So that's a little bit about me and how I got into the business.

Slocomb Reed: Nice. For those of you listeners who are newer, Logan has been on the show a couple of times. It's been a couple of years now, which means like seven, eight, nine hundred episodes, but he has been on the show a couple of times, and he shared a story about being a football player, going to the event Oakland Raiders... So you can go find those episodes. Those episodes will be linked in the show notes. So a couple of stories to tell here Logan - let's start with Xchange CRE. You're not the first Xchange CRE broker to be on the show, or be interviewed by me... Tell us how you got involved in that.

Logan Freeman: When I was getting into real estate, I had a great opportunity. I was fired from my last corporate job, and at the time I wasn't sold on being in real estate, and so I started a sales consulting company. But I also had the opportunity to be a Head of Acquisitions for a $50 million fund that was buying single family homes in Kansas City. Their whole model was buy, renovate, rent it out and refinance. But we were doing it at scale, before many folks were doing this. So I was the head of acquisitions, meaning I was just out there, on the streets, going to properties, negotiating contracts, estimating rehabs, doing everything. And we were successful across 265 properties. But what really kind of showed me what the power of syndication would be was sitting down with the sponsors and asking them "Where did the money come from?" And that really said to me that they were doing a syndication. And I didn't know what that word meant, so I really just went back to the educational circuit, found out what that meant... And I had a thesis though; I didn't want to do it on single family homes. I was really interested in commercial space and multifamily properties. So the current broker that I was working with was not set up for that type of assets. So I went out and I found a brokerage that would allow me to grow in my knowledge and experience and skills on helping out of state buyers with their 1031 exchanges.

Slocomb Reed: And that was Xchange?

Logan Freeman: Tat was not. That was a previous brokerage called Clemens Real Estate. And I had this idea that I'm not going after listings, I'm going to work with buyers. And the managing broker said, "Don't do it, you're going to be wasting your time." And I successfully outsold the rest of the brokerage two years running, and then decided to start Xchange CRE, and continued to build upon that background and the success and track record that we had.

So Xchange is very simple. It's somebody who is an accidental real estate investor, or has no access to deal flow or vendors that they need in a new market. And so what we do is we educate around the market, the opportunities, we go find those opportunities, and then we put simply in place a process for these buyers and these investors to be successful. And so it's pretty hands-on, we've got a nice little niche that we work in, and we love working with buyers, because we've always been on the acquisition side.

Slocomb Reed: Are you focused on the Kansas City market for your deal brokering?

Logan Freeman: We are, yes. Kansas and Missouri. And we hope to expand that to Nebraska and Iowa in the coming years. But for now, we're just going to prove out the process and get some tech actually built so we can scale to more markets. Logan, let me lead with some of my assumptions and some of what I know about Xchange already, and then you can fill in the gaps and correct my mistakes... And then I've got a couple of questions for you. Xchange CRE focuses on 1031 buyers - that makes a lot of sense; 1031 buyers have a sense of urgency, they're ready to go right now. And if you're going to be representing buyers, those are the ones that you want to be working with, for sure.

Direct-to-seller marketing. Advertising that you represent a buyer who has a sense of urgency, who's ready to go right now, write a legitimate offer. That all sounds about right so far, right?

Logan Freeman: That's correct. Yes.

Slocomb Reed: You're also a commercial investor yourself. When you're making those calls reaching out to sellers, how often are you doing it on your own behalf, and how often are you doing it on behalf of a client?

Logan Freeman: We separate the two. So mostly, the transactions we work on for the brokerage side of the business are a little bit too small for FTW investments. So really, our target is one to $3 million properties for 1031 exchange buyers. Our target for FTW investments is 5 million and up. And so when we're out there talking with owners, we say "Look, we're owners ourselves, we're buyers ourselves, but we also can help you position your property with the intent to sell to somebody else if we're not the right buyer." And so we separate out the two. Most of the deals that we come across in regards for FTW investments are relationship-based here. I know most of the sellers, I know most of the players here in the space, and so that's going to come with a relationship that basically "Hey, we want to sell and we want to put it to the right people. FTW is who we're going to call."
In regards to 1031 Xchange brokerage - we may have a clientele call with one of our 1031 exchange buyers and clients and say, "Okay, we know what the criteria is. We might not have anything in our stock right now, but we can go to our list and we can see what property owners we know we can reach out to", so it's a little bit more targeted for those folks as well. But we have an overarching theme of trying to build relationships. A lot of times, Slocomb, we'll pass on listing opportunities because somebody might want $200,000, $300,000 a door, we think we could probably get $120,000 a door for it... We're just not going to waste our time, and we do not like to set expectations with sellers that were the best marketers out there for listings. There are groups out there that can do that.

What we're trying to do is say "Do you want to sell? What's your price?" Okay, we think we can get that, and we think we can do it the less painstaking process as possible." So it's a little bit more targeted, a little bit more hands-on; the pitch to the sellers is "Look, you're gonna get qualified buyers that have been through our process." The pitch to the buyers is "Look, you're not going to find these on LoopNet and other brokerages' websites." And we're going to take a targeted approach.

Sometimes a 1031 buyer says, "Hey, I'd like to be passive." So then FTW steps in and we start to think about a tenancy in common deal, a more hands-on approach from an asset management, property management standpoint as well. So just having the flexibility to really understand what these folks need, and be able to create a proposal and actually go execute on it... That's kind of what our competitive advantage is.

Slocomb Reed: Logan, if it works for you, I'd like to zero in on your expertise in the Kansas City Market. I am an apartment owner-operator in Cincinnati, Ohio. Also, I'm a licensed real estate agent. I was a full-time residential agent focused on working with investors for five years. I have experience with investors who started in Kansas City, wanted to expand, were attracted to Cincinnati for the similarities between the two markets, but then the vast majority of them either got here and never bought anything, or bought a small portfolio, were disappointed, and sold and left the market. So let me ask, specific to exchange and your clients, what percentage are non-local to Kansas City?

Logan Freeman: I'd say probably 90% aren't local here to Kansas City. We have a lot of capital coming from different states, the reason being a 1031 exchange - if you think about highly appreciated markets, Kansas City's not one of those, typically. Unless you bought it 20 years ago; maybe not in the last two years. You could have probably bought something and sold. But more or less... So it's usually in the California, Arizona, Texas, Florida market that we see folks coming to us. Colorado is another one... And they're smaller properties, typically. So they might be selling a single family home or a duplex or a fourplex that they bought. Maybe they lived in it for some period of time, and that highly appreciated... And we go through kind of a return on equity calculation with them just to say, "How much equity do you have in the property? Great. Thank you for telling us that. What's your return, like, right now? Okay. Well, did you know that that could be used as a down payment for 25 doors here in Kansas City?" "Well, no, I didn't." That's the typical conversation that we have with these folks that are in highly appreciated markets, whether that be California, Colorado, or Arizona, or maybe even Florida.

Slocomb Reed: We are recording in August of 2022. Logan, do you have an elevator pitch for what's happening in the Kansas City market right now when it comes to commercial real estate in that one to $3 million space?

Logan Freeman: What I would say is there's a lot of great opportunities here in Kansas City for cash flow. What that has done, it has attracted more and more capital from larger institutions, but also from 1031 exchange buyers. So it is more difficult to find a property; it's not going to be very easy to find a good cash flowing property by just looking at the MLS or LoopNet, or something like that. It's a good place to start to get your basis. But in regards to really understanding the market, you need somebody that can really understand where the path of progress is going.

And in August of 2022, where we're at right now, it's very simple to say that there's still a lot of capital chasing a lot of these deals. But sellers still want yesterday's prices, and buyers want tomorrow's prices. And so there is a little bit of an ask gap that we're having to go through. So resetting expectations for all parties involved; it's one thing that we really tried to accomplish, because of capital being more costly in regards to interest rates, and different things like that. For a lot of these groups, we're not seeing the necessary price appreciation that we were over the last six to eight months; we tracked the Green Street Property Price Index, just like everybody else does, and it started to flatten down and obviously come down a little bit, but we're still highly elevated. So in the single family home market, I think we have seen that change drastically in some markets, but in the commercial real estate, and we still have this gap in regards to seller's prices and where buyers need to be.

Now, for 1031 exchange buyer, that's not what they want to hear. So what we tried to do is say, "Look, what is it that you're looking to accomplish? What is your bottom dollar that you need? Let's look at what you're currently getting in regards to that." And then we also have to talk about the other benefits of real estate, whether that be depreciation, equity build-up, appreciation, or using leverage to be able to get a better return on equity.

So long story short, I don't think it's anything different other than Kansas City has been put on the map recently, with Panasonic saying, "Hey, we're gonna put a $4 billion battery plant in western Johnson County", and Meta putting a big data center up North, and all these different distributions. It's what we have been saying for quite some time now for five years - Mid America keeps America moving, and it's pretty steady, Eddie, but you're never going to get these huge spikes in price appreciation, but you're also not going to get these massive declines either.

Slocomb Reed: That makes sense. The vast array of my experience was with Cincinnati, another Midwestern market, as we said. Most Midwestern markets have experienced a lot of redevelopment, gentrification, really reurbanization of our white collar populations... Let me cut to the chase here. My understanding is that it's easier to track the path of progress in a place like Kansas City than it is a place like Cincinnati, Ohio. And that is why I think a lot of investors don't fare as well in Cincinnati as they do other places... Because our growth is not necessarily geographic. You really need to have a boots on the ground understanding of all the different neighborhoods, the societal, socio cultural implications of neighborhoods here in Cincinnati. Why is it that people are passing by two or three neighborhoods to commute into the major hospitals, things like that.

My understanding is Kansas City is just a lot easier to track the path of progress. It's fairly geographic, it's headed in a cardinal direction. If you want to be in front of it, you just plant yourself right where you know it's going to go. Is that actually true?

Logan Freeman: I think it is, and for a few reasons. One, we have some pretty large infrastructure projects going on. So whether that be the streetcar extension, or whether that be the new airports, or these large distribution facilities that are being built with large jobs that are going to be created. So we have a lot of that where we can track, and then you can understand where that path of progress might be.

The other thing being Kansas City is highly driven by the school districts, and I'm sure most cities like Cincinnati are as well... But we have a pretty unique scenario here, where when you start to have school-aged kids, you really start to think about where you're living, because the Kansas City, Missouri public school system, traditionally, and historically, has not been very good. We just got our accreditation back for the public schools. So most folks will move to a different sub market if they want to start sending their kids, if they can, whether that be Lease Summit, or Independence, or Blue Springs, or even cross state line, over to Kansas and be in Johnson County, where the schools are phenomenal.

So that's an easy way for us to track the path of progress as well, and understand the different theses in regards to asset classes, depending on where you're looking to invest in. And so I think infrastructure and school districts are big drivers for where we look at and invest in.

Break: [00:16:12.12] to [00:18:11.28]

Slocomb Reed: You said infrastructure, but you have some major employers coming in and building new facilities. Is it really as easy as just tracking where are the jobs going and where are the blue chip schools?

Logan Freeman: It's not, because De Soto, Kansas, where Panasonic is going to put that $4 billion plant, is not necessarily the area where you want to go dump millions and millions of dollars to invest. So understanding that maybe Olathe, which is a close area, but very much more developed already - it might be a better opportunity to invest in Olathe, because of the 4,000 jobs in De Soto. But actually coming into Kansas City and just buying single family homes or multifamily property around De Soto might not be the best move, because De Soto is still a very small little place in regards to Kansas City in general.

So having the ability to know who to talk to and where to invest, just depending on these different implications, is very important... Because I had a call last week with a group out on the West Coast saying "We just saw the news about Panasonic. We want to invest in De Soto" and I said "Well, why?" "Well, that's where it's gonna go." I said "It's 45 minutes away from most large areas where people live. Take a look at Western Johnson County, like a Olathe, Lenexa, Shawnee, different places like that. That's probably a better place to invest."

Slocomb Reed: Logan, I'd like to transition the conversation here and discuss the market of the moment. You've been on the podcast before; the loyal, long-time listeners are already familiar with you and your investing activity. What I'd like to key in on here is the 1031 buyers that you represent. This episode will likely air in September of 2022. I doubt much will change between now and when this episode airs with regards to the macros that we're experiencing in commercial real estate right now... So let me, again, paint a picture, some assumptions about what I think you're experiencing at Xchange CRE that I'm sure will be wrong... But I want you to correct me where I'm wrong. Let me know where my assumptions are accurate just based on my understanding of what's happening in Midwestern markets like yours and mine, and what's happening with capital and the investors who have been deployed in commercial real estate for the last several years. I'm imagining that there's a pretty serious crunch on 1031 activity right now, because in that 45-day identification window - and again, we have a pretty sophisticated audience, Logan, as you already know, so we don't need to slow down and explain everything... But during that 45-day identification window, right now that identification window opened at the earliest in late June; and in late June we were experiencing very similar interest rates, in a very similar economy to where we are right now, that, as you said, the sellers wanting yesterday's prices, the buyers wanting tomorrow's prices... And I imagine the people who were selling in June, that some of those people may not be looking to redeploy within commercial real estate, but also that activity in general has slowed as cap rates have expanded, lagging interest rates. So to summarize all of this, I imagine 1031s have slowed down significantly based on the market factors we're experiencing. Is that what you're experiencing?

Logan Freeman: We've seen a little bit of a slowdown... But again, I think that for us, the way that we approach the process here with the sellers is they're pretty reasonable in regards to pricing. We've already had those conversations in regards to macro economics. They know that the interest rates are rising. If their property is on our marketplace, we've had those conversations with them and it's like, "Look, if you want to go list and try to get top dollar, and all these different things, there's five, six different groups that you should work with. If you're open to selling at a certain price, and we think that that's okay, we can probably bring you a buyer for that property."

1031 exchanges also seem to be highly predicated on some government regulation. So every time we hear maybe the 1031 exchange going away, we get a bunch of calls and saying, "Hey, do I need to sell my property right now?" So we walk through that process with them as well. But we typically have anywhere between two to four transactions going every single month in regards to 1031 exchanges; it stayed pretty steady. Our stock of good property has fallen down, just because of sellers' expectations. And that's okay. They will come back around, and the ones that we're willing to work with and are pretty reasonable will transact. But we always make sure that buyers know where the local regional banks are going to be in regards to interest rates, and when we're looking at a property, that interest rate is in the pro forma. And if the only thing that's predicated that this deal is going to move forward is a lower interest rate, we're gonna really advise not to make that offer.

So having the interest rate be 25, 50 basis points higher than what it is currently is usually the standard in our underwriting with our buyers, just to say, "Look, we don't want this one piece of the puzzle here to break this down." So I think it just comes down to expectations, but two to four transactions is pretty normal for us, and that's kind of where we're at right now as well.

Slocomb Reed: So you're transacting with as much frequency as you were 6-12 months ago now?

Logan Freeman: We are.

Slocomb Reed: Gotcha.

Logan Freeman: We don't have as much product available, but the buyer pool seems to be still out there... Because if you think about it, three, four months ago, people were like, "Oh, my gosh, I can sell for the highest price ever." And so those properties may still be on the market, or they may still be open to selling. But if they are just resetting their expectations, "Hey, I might not get $100,000 a door, but I still may get $92,000 a door." That Green Street Property Price Index has not dropped down to pre-pandemic levels. So when you think about pricing, and where it's at for a seller, it's still pretty good. And so then, you have to then go find them another opportunity. So just working through them and setting those expectations, and understanding what everybody needs out of the transaction.

Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. So the difference between August of '22 and August of '21 is not necessarily buyer demand for these kinds of deals. It's more about the supply of sellers who are willing to sell at what the buyers are willing to pay right now?

Logan Freeman: That's what we're seeing, yes. Because if you think about that, when interest rates were three to four, obviously you could pay a little bit more for a property and still have the same return profile. So those sellers may be just holding on to their properties. But those buyers that we're still working with, which are under the deadline, are still looking. So those other sellers that are just willing to be reasonable are still out there in the marketplace, and we're still finding them.

In fact, if somebody was just testing the market, saying "Oh my gosh, I just saw this sell for $200,000 a door. I'm going to put my for 220k", that's not who we're typically working with anyways. If you want to test the market, go test the market; we're not listing agents.

And so I would say that some of the larger brokerage firms I know here locally, they have probably seen a bigger drop-off in regards to that, because the buyer pools that they were tapping into were predicated on low interest rates, and not necessarily a 1031 exchange.

Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. I know you've been through the lightning round before, Logan... Are you ready to do it again?

Logan Freeman: Yes, I am. Let's do it low.

Slocomb Reed: Logan, what is the best ever book you recently read?

Logan Freeman: Oh, man, there's so many of them. But I did just finish Urban Meyer's book "Above the line." And I think it is so good. I think it's above the line thinking, is his book on leadership. And as we continue to grow our business, and I have employees, really understanding how to lead effectively... It was a fantastic book. I know Urban Meyers had some ups and downs in his career, as everybody has, but the book is really solid. And being an ex football player, I really resonated with it.

Slocomb Reed: Nice. What is your best ever way to get back?

Logan Freeman: Well, I will plug this. The tournament may have already happened, but I sit on the board of directors for a nonprofit here in Kansas City called Restart. And our aim is simply to help prevent and end homelessness. And the way that we do that is through rapid rehousing and social services. We're having a golf tournament in September on the 19th to support Restart, and we're looking to make a big donation for that... So I love giving back that way, and I'm very active in my church community here in Kansas City as well.

Slocomb Reed: Nice. Logan, our conversation today has focused more on your brokering activities and your expertise of the Kansas City Market... So I want to ask, within your deal brokering with Xchange CRE, what is the biggest mistake that you've made, and the best ever lesson that resulted from it?

2:I would say the biggest ever mistake is trying to work with everybody. Early on, you get started, you just want to work with everybody, and you try to really just take a shotgun approach and say, "Look, you're on my list; we've got properties, they're gonna go fast, so buy them." Just going through that process of failed transactions early on was really kind of a good lesson for me, but also, the hardest part is you worked for two months on a transaction, and then at the last minute it falls through, and then you have no pipeline.

So early on, I definitely took a shotgun approach. It's much more rifled now, and we really try to qualify the folks that we're working with on both sides of a transaction, to make sure that we can be successful. So we look at KPIs in regards to deals that are under contract to get to close. And we want that to be around 90%. We understand something is going to happen if somebody's not going to be able to close, whether that be financing, or a personal situation that has happened... So that's kind of that 10%. But really understanding and setting the good expectations on both sides up front, taking a rifle approach, and trying to get ahead of any objections that might happen throughout the transaction process, now that we've been through hundreds and hundreds of these; lesson learned.

And I can't really point to one transaction that didn't go through, but I can just remember many that have been under contract, we've gone through inspections, we've done all these things, and for some reason, stuff that popped up that we probably could have made sure that we worked through earlier on in the process is the lesson there, and trying to get better at that. You never want to be put against a timeframe that makes you make a rash decision, and that's usually what happens in transactions that fail.

Slocomb Reed: I resonate with that. As a residential real estate agent who focuses with investors, now kind of on the other end of that hill, I spend most of my time with other agents, teaching them how to work with investors; I spend most of my time there, teaching them how to identify which investor clients are worth taking on and which ones are not. So I totally get, that trying to work with everyone, finding your niche with clients up front. Logan on that note, what is your best ever advice?

Logan Freeman: I would say "Be quick, but don't hurry." That was something from back in collegiate football, that one of my coaches kind of imparted on me. And it simply means you need to move swiftly, but you don't need to be making bad decisions because you're in a hurry. Patience is a virtue for a reason. And I always say that infinite patience produces immediate results. You want to be quick, you want to be able to pivot and be able to be fluid, and understand that market dynamics change, and so do you, but you never want to hurry. You never want to just blaze past the details. That's what causes a lot of struggle, in business and in real estate. So be quick, but don't hurry.

Slocomb Reed: Awesome. And where can people get in touch with you?

Logan Freeman: You could follow me on LinkedIn, I post daily over there. Logan Freeman, Mr. Kansas City; our websites are Xchangecre.com and FTWinvestmentsllc.com.

Slocomb Reed: Nice. And those links are in the show notes. Logan, thank you. Best ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this conversation about the market of the moment, what Midwestern markets are experiencing right now as well, please do subscribe to our show, leave us a five star review, and share this episode with an investor friend who you know we can add value to through this conversation. Thank you and have a best ever day.

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