February 6, 2024

JF3442: The Truth About Insurance Costs in 2024, and How to Mitigate Them ft. Jeremy Goodrich



In this episode, Joe Cornwell interviews Jeremy Goodrich, as they discuss insurance and risk management in real estate investing. They highlight the importance of a holistic approach, common mistakes, and strategies to mitigate costs.

Key Takeaways:

  • Holistic Insurance Understanding: Recognizing the importance of seeing insurance as part of a larger risk management strategy to protect investments.
  • Avoiding Common Mistakes: Learning from typical oversights in risk management, such as inadequate safety practices and documentation.
  • Cost Mitigation Strategies: Implementing methods to handle increasing insurance premiums, including the selection of higher deductibles and choosing the right insurance broker.

Jeremy Goodrich | Real Estate Background

  • CEO of Shine Insurance
  • Helps CRE acquisitions and asset management teams build and implement Risk management & insurance strategies
  • Based in:  Bloomington, IN
  • Say hi to him at: 
  • Best Ever Book: Tribal Branding by Patrick Hanlon

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Joe Cornwell (00:03.83)
Best ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm your host Joe Cornwell, and today I'm joined by Jeremy Goodrich. Jeremy is the CEO of Shine Insurance. He is a commercial real estate risk advisor and his company provides commercial real estate insurance. It's his first time on the show. So Jeremy, welcome to best ever and how are you today?

Jeremy Goodrich (00:24.105)
Joe, it's a pleasure to be on here. I'm awesome, really excited. Obviously follow what y'all do and I'm excited to be a small part of it. So looking forward to sharing a little bit about risk management, insurance, and just one little tiny piece of how you have a solid service team when you're growing your CRE portfolio.

Joe Cornwell (00:40.906)
Yeah, I mean, insurance is definitely a hot topic for most real estate investors, especially the cost and how premiums have skyrocketed the last couple of years. And I'm sure you're hearing all about that in your neck of the woods as well, being on the other side of it. But before we get into that, why don't you take us through your background? How did you get into insurance business? And we'll go from there.

Jeremy Goodrich (01:02.577)
Yeah, so I was an elementary school teacher for 13 years. I basically did that until a point where I was like, all right, I'm being super poor and not having any money is something I just can't do anymore. And so what else can I do at that point? My wife and I decided to start an insurance agency. That was 10 years ago in 2013, really with the intention of just changing the way people feel about insurance.

So I dug into property from the very beginning. I started with homeowners and ensuring people's homes that they lived in pretty quickly moved into helping people ensure their single family rentals from one to four rental, you know, one to four rental structures, sort of residential rentals. And then I moved into the commercial real estate space. That was sort of the natural next space. And so what I deal with primarily, I personally deal with mostly portfolios that are between 500 and 5,000 units across the country of all kinds of commercial real estate assets. So office, retail, multifamily, self storage, uh, industrial anywhere inside those asset classes is what I do.

So I understand really the insurance side and the risk management side from someone who has a single family rental all the way up to someone who has a diverse portfolio across the country.

Joe Cornwell (02:14.03)
Okay, and when you are dealing with these large, you know, real estate companies that have these large holdings, what is the most common issue or mistake you see from these operators?

Jeremy Goodrich (02:26.845)
I think the biggest mistake from the insurance side is first not understanding it from a holistic perspective. When you're thinking about insurance, it's a tiny little piece of your risk management strategy, right? You want the people, the property, and the purse to be safe, right? You want all your employees, your tenants, the people you're doing business with to be safe. Of course you want the property to be safe. And of course you want the money to be safe. Ultimately, that's the bottom line, right, that fact.

And so when you're laying in bed worrying about something, it's like, well, you don't have the right risk management strategy in place if you're having to worry about it. And so I really try and step back with those larger investors and saying, do we have a strategy in place? Do your property managers know exactly what you expect from them when it comes to inspections? Do they know how often they want you to do it? Do they know how you want it reported to you? Do you do they know how you want to handle? Do they know what your you know, foundation is so that you can pay for things as they go along.

So I really start with my larger investors at that higher level space and for a lot of them it's like, wow, I'd never really thought about how much more profitable my portfolio can be when I come from that mental perspective. So that's really step one.

When you get to the insurance, what are we doing with insurance? Well, we're protecting two things, right? The property itself, if a place burns down, you don't have $10 million to replace it. And so you're passing that risk on to an insurance company who does have $10 million in that situation, and you're paying a premium for that. That's your property insurance.

And the other insurance is liability, which is like you have a tenant come out of the front door, they slip and fall on the ice and your sidewalk, they break an arm and they, you know, pick up a personal injury attorney and suddenly it's a $60,000 situation, right? That's bad things happening to other people because of your property. That's called liability. And liability insurance is there to take care of that situation, to deal with that cost and assess it. So where I see the biggest those basic fundamentals before we get into the weeds about price and how it works and all that kind of stuff.

Joe Cornwell (04:41.898)
Yeah, so using your example, and this is something I've heard different opinions on and I've worked with several different insurance brokers myself on my properties, but I want to get your thoughts and your take on this. So the example I've heard is that if you are, let's just say you own a four family property and you have sidewalks and you have a driveway and you have a little parking lot in the back.

Is the owner, from a liability standpoint, I know you're not an attorney, but just your personal opinion on this, more or less liable if they are actively treating or not treating, let's say, like ice or snow, for example? Like, what would your advice be to your clients on this?

Jeremy Goodrich (05:19.829)
So in that particular, so the owner is always going to get sued in a bad situation, I guess is the bottom line. It doesn't matter. You know, a lawyer is going to sue anyone and everyone. They're going to sue the property manager. They're going to sue the owner. They're going to sue, you know, the deer that was standing in the field next to the situation when it happened, right? They're going to sue anyone and everyone. And so there's some exposure you're always going to have whether you're truly liable or not is another conversation, right?

So in that ICE example, what I would do as a property owner is I would make sure that I hired a specific, usually a landscape company that does snow removal as well. I would not have my property managers doing my snow and ice removal. I would hire a professional snow and ice removal company. I would make sure they had certificates of insurance. And most importantly, the thing I've seen go wrong so many times in claims, I would make sure that they documented when they put salt down, documenting their process.

Most of the time what happens is you have your property manager who you just say, hey why don't you put some you know salt down when you see ice or whatever and the property manager maybe they did a great job of it maybe they didn't. We have no idea because we have no documentation and so when a lawyer says well there's no documentation so you all didn't put anything down so now you're liable because you failed to handle the safety situation you knew existed, which was the ice on your sidewalk.

And so, that's why we hire professionals to do everything. That's why you don't necessarily want your maintenance team doing major renovations on your property. You wanna hire contractors who are professionals at that thing. Yes, it probably does cost a little bit more money, but if bad things happen, they're gonna have safety systems in place and therefore, be less liable, right? Liability is what a reasonable person would do to keep safety in place. And if you fail at that, that lawsuit goes a lot higher, a lot quicker.

Joe Cornwell (07:19.57)
Interesting. Yeah, so my background before I got full time into real estate was law enforcement and everything you said just reminded me of a thing They teach us as young cops where it's you know It's not what you know It's what you can prove in court and how you prove things in court is by taking good notes documenting everything that happens on a case or a call or you know in a report whatever that may be and You know, I guess obviously that's a civil side of things potentially but it makes sense where you're gonna want to be able to demonstrate in court, you know this is what we did. This is who did it. This is how they did it. And having that documentation is going to hopefully save your butt one day if you were to get sued.

Jeremy Goodrich (07:54.589)
Yeah, and as a small property owner, you need to do that yourself. You need to start to practice that inside your own system. And of course, as you move to property management, then you really need to make sure you're holding your property managers accountable. And if you are having them do some others, you know, how are they documenting? I think, like you said, as being a cop, everything comes back to what you can prove. And you can't document every single thing you do, but the better your systems are, the easier it is to do those things and the more success you'll find and the less liable, you'll be in a bad situation.

Joe Cornwell (08:26.506)
Yeah. So if you are, let's say you're a midsize portfolio holder investor, and like probably a lot of our listeners today, and they have outsourced a third party management, what should those investors be looking for in a management company when it comes to insurance?

Jeremy Goodrich (08:45.481)
Well, as far as insurance, what you wanna look for in your property management is one, they have solid insurance and they're sending you certificates of insurance. You are named as an additional insured on their certificates of insurance. And what that means is that, in that example of the not putting the salt down, the person, the entity that is most likely to have liability is the property management entity because they were the ones who were supposed to do the thing and didn't, but you as the owner are getting sued too. If you are named as an additional insured on the property manager's policy, then that property manager's insurance policy should defend not only them, but also you.

And that means it doesn't hit your insurance policy. And so when you're asking a property manager to add you as an additional insured on their policy, what you're saying is, hey, if something bad happens and it's obviously more your fault than ours, then your company is gonna defend me so that I don't have to go to my insurance company and file a claim. So I think that's the biggest thing you can do from asking your property managers for insurance from a risk strategy, you have to have your own risk management strategy.

And that strategy has to include, like I said before, how you're expecting your property management team to navigate risk on the property. And you have to say that on the front end, cause the property manager might say, well, if you want me to do these additional things, it's going to cost more. Right. So you want to understand that from the beginning. Are you willing to pay for that higher level of safety? But I would say it's two conversations. One is the insurance conversation, which I described getting certificates of insurance and why, and the second is risk management, making sure that they're on your risk management team and helping you to keep the property safe.

Joe Cornwell (10:33.482)
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let's talk about something again that's very timely. I have a lot of investor clients. I'm an agent as well. And obviously, I own several properties. I have property insurance on all of those and liability insurance for my construction business as well. And as I'm sure you're well aware, premiums the last couple of years have increasingly sometimes doubled or even more in some cases. So What can investors do, property owners do, to mitigate cost? What would your advice be to them?

Jeremy Goodrich (11:04.209)
Yeah, so the first thing I think is the background behind what's going on there. So in 2023 and 2022.

Well, in 2021, there were about $6 billion in property claims across the United States. In 2022, there were $25 billion in property claims across the United States. That is a five times increase in claim experience. In 2023, it was 36. So it went up by another 20%, 25%. So from 2021 to 2023, we went from $6 billion in property claims to $36 billion in property claims ask why insurance premium is going up, that's all you need to know.

Now, why that's happening is a broader conversation. Climate change is a part of that. Certainly, it's a big part of it. I think you're seeing a lot more claims, a lot more of that. You're seeing a lot more roofers out there, you know, wanting to replace big roofs. There's a lot of contributors, and I don't know how far you want me to get into that, but that is the foundation. I think that's important because as property owners, sometimes we're just like, man, this is baloney, right? And at least giving that foundation, insurance company presidents are making plenty of money there's certainly plenty to complain about your insurance premiums and I'm not denying that at all but that is the reality of the foundational situation.

As far as what you can do about it I think it comes back to those risk strategies so the first thing you do is make sure your property is as safe as possible and make sure that's documented.

The second thing you're gonna do is ask your insurance advisor to leverage that fact with their insurance companies. I have companies that will say yes to me and they're not saying yes to other insurance agents. Why is that true? Because I asked my clients to provide me with a risk management strategy or I say, hey, I've got one that I can help you with. And then I turn to the companies and I say, look, I know you're not insuring 1970s construction apartments right now investor.

I want you to understand why this investor has a lower risk than other investors do. I want you to see their risk strategy and why there's less likelihood for them to have a claim. And I'm going to be able to get a company that's saying no to other people to say yes. Now that isn't true every single time, but that is the concept, right? Where if we're proving that we're less of a risk than other people, then we can drastically reduce our insurance cost. The other thing I would say is You've got to avoid small claims.

I see a lot of property investors, you know, with a thousand dollar deductible, raise that deductible to five thousand dollars unless you just don't have that money. You know, if you're a larger investor, I have clients with deductibles all the way up to a million dollars, two million dollars. Now we have some captive insurance in the mix of that. That's a more complex conversation. But, you know, your deductible is the place that you can save some money. And you also don't want to have a really low deductible, so it tempts you to make a $1,000 claim or even a $2,000 claim. It's just going to burn you in the back end and it's going to make it harder for us to get your insurance with the best companies that have the best coverage and the best price.

Joe Cornwell (14:19.242)
Yeah, I am definitely one of those who by default, I look for higher deductibles. Obviously, you know, for a couple of reasons, I want to, you know, reduce premiums whenever I can, but also for me, I had an experience and I'll tell a quick story where a few years ago, and this might've been like five years ago or now I had a sewer back up in one of my duplexes and first time I had any kind of major, you know, catastrophe and there wasn't a ton of like property damage to my tenants property. They had stuff stored in the basement.

But there was quite a bit of cost to actually fix all the underlying issues that caused it. And it was like 100-year-old plumbing. And so long story short, I ended up spending about $6,000 or $7,000, basically from the main sewer stack all the way out to the street. It was all completely replaced. And when I went to file the claim with my insurance to try to get some of this money reimbursed, nothing.

At the end of the day, it was kind of like this back and forth and long story short, I ended up getting basically no reimbursement on my claim. And their thing was like, well, it's 100 year old pipes, they just needed to be replaced, so to speak. And since the damage was minimal, there wasn't, let's say it was like $500 in damage, it was under the deductible for that piece. So all that's to say that I learned at that point, maybe I had a $2,500 deductible or something at that point, that I'm paying this premium and insurance, in my opinion, by default, is going to do what they can to not pay. They're a business. They don't want to spend money. All of us don't want to lose money as business. So I'm trying to put myself in their shoes.

And maybe you have a different opinion on this, but it's like, I can see that they don't want to pay claims unless they absolutely have to. And I don't think that's an outlandish statement to make. It makes logical sense if I'm an insurance company. And therefore, I transitioned from that experience to higher deductibles. Now, I do have a benefit of owning a construction not only can I do everything that may need to be done, but I can also do it at cost, right? So I have some personal benefits there in my particular situation that allows me to have less personal risk or liability financially if I do have to do a major repair that is not covered by insurance. So anyway, with all that said, what are your thoughts and opinions on that as a strategy?

Jeremy Goodrich (16:43.741)
Yeah, I think a couple things you said there that are important. One, the idea that insurance companies are working to not pay claims. I think it depends. You know, I think that a claim adjuster is the person at the insurance company who ultimately is looking at the insurance policy, seeing what's covered and looking at the situation and seeing what is deemed there. Right. And claims adjusters are trained at insurance companies in certain way.

There are absolutely insurance companies that train their claims adjusters on exclusions to look for ways to not pay claims and that hits on the point that you're talking about I think the good companies though most of the companies we work with and most of the conversations I have With the presidents of insurance companies across, you know the country have to do with look It's worse for us to not pay in your case. It was what six thousand dollars to an insurance company That's a drop in the bucket. I mean, that's nothing right most insurance companies are going to look to provide coverage in that situation, so you're not angry, right?

In a claim scenario, a client decides in that situation whether they love that insurance company or whether they hate that insurance company. There's really nowhere in between when you go through a claim. And so the good companies are saying, we want people to love us after the claim. Now, if something is just not covered in the policy, water backup is an example. A lot of policies don't have any water backup coverage. It's a separate coverage besides kind of the standard stuff that's there.

So if your agent was trying to get the cheapest policy, maybe they cut out that coverage. It doesn't sound like that was the situation here, but you know that could be an example. Water backup, a lot of times people think they have coverage for it and they simply don't because it wasn't included. That claim adjusters hands are tied. It was the agent and the client ultimately who made the decision, right? So on the topic of the you know companies are trying not to pay claims, there are companies out there that are trying not to pay claims. There's no doubt. 

There's a lot of companies out there that don't follow through with their policies. It's like any other industry where there's good people and there's bad people. And I think that's the case on that one. I think generally in that claim scenario, you know, I feel mixed because on one hand, like you have insurance to take care of you in bad situations and you needed, you thought you needed insurance in that situation. And I don't know all the details, but them saying, well, they were just old pipes, they needed to be replaced.

Well, if old things just get old and it's a maintenance situation, where if a roof is just old, it needs to be replaced. I just paid $15,000 to replace a roof myself, right? Like I'm an insurance agent, I know how to use the system if I needed to, I just didn't have any damage, it was just a maintenance thing, right? Interestingly though, in those scenarios, like if you have a valve break on the back of a toilet, they won't cover the valve because that was just a valve failure, but they will cover all the water damage that happened because of that valve failure.

So the valve is a 50 cent thing, we won't cover that, the tens of thousands of dollars of water damage on the four stories of the building below that toilet. So there's a lot of variance in it just like everything. Bottom line, filing small claims is not a good idea. Other bottom line, you should expect your insurance company to pay if they should pay. And I advocate for people all the time to make sure that happens.

Joe Cornwell (20:05.642)
Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I think to your point, now that you break it down, obviously it's been like said, four or five years. I don't remember all the details of, you know, kind of the back and forth I had with my company, but it, you know, I think that the issue was that it was a hundred year old pipes. There was basically long story. We ended up basically finding two spots that were like partial and a full collapse, which is what caused the backup. It was like clay, you know, clay tile piping. So we obviously replaced all that with modern PVC, but the damage inside because of the backup was so minimal that didn't raise to the level of the deductible. So like you said, kind of like the fruits of it were not as expensive as the cost, let's say, as you mentioned. Yeah. Right.

Jeremy Goodrich (20:44.529)
Yeah, the big cost was replacing all those pipes. Those were just old, and so you didn't have coverage for that. So yeah, I would. And again, that's not the insurance company trying not to. It's so easy to think that the insurance company is trying not to cover a claim. Usually it's just like the language of the policy, but it's a back and forth. You know, there's not a clear answer.

Joe Cornwell (21:03.75)
Yeah. I mean, I could give several examples and, you know, there's a big company, at least here in Cincinnati is notorious. They're a nationwide company, but they're notorious for not wanting to pay claims. And I could give several examples of, you know, as a contractor where, you know, we're doing work for a client. And then I'll give one brief example. We had a customer, we were doing a full first floor remodel. Why we were there during this project, roof and siding.

They had like 60 miles, 70 mile an hour winds came through, roof and siding was torn off the house and they filed an insurance claim. Because we had such a good relationship with them, even though that's not really our expertise, they asked us to fix it. We gave an estimate to fix it. And basically, the adjuster came back with like wanting little tiny, basically piecing in pieces of siding that didn't even match because it was like, whatever, 20 year old siding to not, it wouldn't even match the color. The shingles wouldn't match the roof, but that was basically what they approved.

Like, oh, you could do repairs on some of these sections that were damaged. And, you know, obviously that's not what the customer wanted. That's not our business either. Like we weren't gonna do that type of work anyway. But all that's to say it was like, this was like, they went on for months and months and months with this company to try to get a claim approved.

Jeremy Goodrich (22:23.549)
Yeah, there's a lot of nuances. One example is hail. So different insurance companies have different lines for what means you have to replace a roof. So some of the larger national companies will say, well, inside of a five foot by five foot square, there has to be 12 hail hits, where another company I work with says there has to be three. So obviously that other company is gonna pay out more in claims. They're also gonna make their clients happier, right? So I understand that from my side, and one of the things I have to balance, and of course I'm not digging into every single one of these details when I'm talking with clients because it's just too much.

But I know which company is gonna be the three hail hits and which company is gonna be the 12 hail hits. So if I got similar prices, you know, I'm gonna go with the one that I know is gonna pay claims better. And sometimes that's hard to describe to clients, but those of us who are good on our side, we're trying to figure out, okay, what's the best balance of the quality that's actually gonna pay that claim when you need them and the price that you want?

And I think there's a lot of folks out there, especially as you get into bigger commercial real estate, that they're just gonna go out there and find a super crappy insurance policy for as cheap as they possibly can because they want the deal. To me, I would say to your listeners, would you rather pay $100,000 in insurance premium for a policy that does nothing for you or $110,000 in insurance premium for one that will actually take care of you? I had a scenario recently, it wasn't my client, they came to me afterwards, and I broke down this scenario and you can see my breakdown on our YouTube channel, but essentially, the policy that I offered them.

So I had offered them coverage and they had decided to go with someone else for about 10% cheaper. Would have paid out $480,000 in a $500,000 claim. It was essentially $500,000 minus the deductible. What they got in the loss situation was $115,000 in a $500,000 claim. Now there's a lot of reasons for those differences, but they saved $10,000 to lose $300,000 in a loss your advisor is so important as you make these decisions.

Joe Cornwell (24:35.614)
Now my understanding is you are an insurance broker, is that correct? Okay. And so define that for the listener who may not understand the nuance.

Jeremy Goodrich (24:45.277)
Yeah, so you basically have two ways you can get insurance. One is you can go to a Super Bowl commercial company. They're called captive companies. So you go to State Farm, you ask for a quote. State Farm gives you a quote from State Farm Insurance. It's just one company and you're going straight to them and you're getting a quote from them, right? So that's one option. And for smaller investors, that's absolutely an option. Really all the way up to four door, four unit properties, most of these Super Bowl commercial companies are gonna be able to help you, that's one way to go about it.

Another way is to go to an independent insurance agent and that's what I am. So I started my own business and then I went out to insurance companies and said hey I'd love to be able to offer your product in my agency and so those companies I start to compile them. I have over a hundred companies in our agency right now and so then I make them compete and I go so I go out you come to me and say hey you want some insurance I say great I'm gonna go make a bunch of companies compete I'm gonna bring you back the best option.

Joe Cornwell (25:44.17)
Yeah, and I can speak directly to the importance of finding a good broker that has the multiple options. You know, me personally, I would never advise somebody to go directly to, like you said, one of the big companies, because that was what I used to do before I even understood what insurance brokers do. And as I mentioned, I have a couple that I've worked with. The reason why I work with a couple is because a lot of them, a lot of times they can offer different types of products for different types of properties.

In my particular business, we have properties that are sometimes difficult to insure because they're fully vacant or they have structural issues or they're a massive renovation type of project. So that's another thing. The last couple of years has gotten increasingly challenging to find carriers who are willing to insure those type of products, especially when they're a hundred years old, like a lot of the inventory here in Southwest Ohio, Northern Kentucky is.

But all that's to say that when you have a good insurance broker or a couple of brokers that you work with, they're going to go out and find you the right policy to suit your situation and get you the best deal. And is there anything I'm missing from that line of thought?

Jeremy Goodrich (26:53.445)
No, I think the biggest, most important part of that too, is that most good brokers, especially ones who focus on commercial real estate, are going to have very similar insurance company markets. And so I would encourage your listeners to build a relationship with one broker, just like you would do with your tax person, just like you would do with your lawyer, just like you would do with your property manager. Because if that person is good, if that agency is good, they're doing the shopping for you when you have two different independent brokers shop, they're shopping essentially the same companies.

And what people don't realize is when a company gets a submission for the same property from two different agents or three different agents or four different agents, that actually makes things worse for you because that company now says this person is not, this person isn't coming to this from a trust perspective. This person is coming to this from a price perspective.

The company now knows that you're shopping for brokers and the company is going to offer worse terms because again, just like I said at the beginning of this conversation, companies make decisions on the story of the investor and the story of the risk. And when you submit through multiple brokers, now the story has been soiled a little bit. You obviously don't trust one person. You're someone who's out there shopping. So it's just one of the flags that the company, connect with.

So of course, you know, as a business owner, as a property investor, you have to decide how you're going to navigate your service providers. But I see a lot of investors, you know, going to three different brokers and having them all quote it and thinking that this is going to give them a better option. And that is just absolutely not the case.

Joe Cornwell (28:33.63)
Yeah, no, that makes sense. And yeah, and to be clear in my situation, the only reason I ever shopped with the second broker was because the first broker could not, you know, find a coverage policy for a particular type of property. You know, so in that case, I've said I didn't have a choice. But yeah, I agree with you completely.

Jeremy Goodrich (28:47.421)
Yeah, absolutely. And a broker that'll tell you, hey, I don't have a good option for this, and you have that relationship going, that's really important, right? Like with all of your service providers, it's trust but verify. You've gotta find people you trust or you're not gonna succeed as you grow your portfolio to larger numbers. At the same time, if you have some basic things to verify that trust, then you know whether you're working with someone who's out for your best interest or is out for their best interest.

Joe Cornwell (29:13.714)
Yeah, that makes sense to me. Any other final thoughts for our listener on ways to save money? Any other major risks to look out for in their insurance policies or with their insurance company?

Jeremy Goodrich (29:25.713)
No, I think the biggest piece of advice I can give is just treat your insurance advisor just like every other service provider. I know that commercials and everything says that insurance is a commodity and you just got to go get a bunch of quotes and get the cheapest one. It just is not how it works in the commercial real estate world, especially as you cross into multiple doors and larger properties. So find someone you trust, find someone who explains things simply and makes insurance simple for you. That's certainly what I'm trying to do. There's lots of good agents out there that are doing the same thing.

Joe Cornwell (29:55.826)
Awesome, and are you ready to transition to the best ever lightning round?

Jeremy Goodrich (30:00.873)
I would love to.

Joe Cornwell (30:02.678)
Give me your best ever book recommendation.

Jeremy Goodrich (30:05.757)
So my best ever book recommendation is a few books by Jay Baer. I'll focus on utility. Jay Baer is a, he writes about marketing. He wrote the book, Hug Your Haters. A lot of other great books that just focus on one specific thing that can make your marketing strategy successful. So whether you're a capital raiser or you're looking for more deals, whatever it is you're doing, I think Jay's books can really help. I would start with utility, but any of his books are great.

Joe Cornwell (30:32.598)
Best ever way you like to give back.

Jeremy Goodrich (30:35.285)
So we give back locally for the most part. We have a Rise By Lifting Others program. And so we give back. Right now we're raising money for the community kitchen here in Bloomington, Indiana, who serves three squares a day, two folks who need them. And so, but our organization that we donate to changes every two months all year long.

Joe Cornwell (30:58.226)
And how can people connect with you and learn more about your company?

Jeremy Goodrich (31:02.293)
So I think specifically for your listeners who are multifamily investors, we have a tool at shineinsurance.com, shineinsurance.com slash ballpark. It's you put the address in and answer nine yes or no questions and we'll give you a ballpark number. It's not a quote, it's not a hard quote, but it is a really good way when you're penciling deals, when you're doing those first levels of underwriting before you submit an LOI that can help you a lot. So I would go to shineinsurance.com slash ballpark and mark that in your browser or whatever to just come back to every time that insurance line, but you can find me on shineinsurance.com, I'm all over LinkedIn as well.

Joe Cornwell (31:37.942)
That's a really cool tool. Yeah, definitely helpful when you're trying to do that, you know, quick 30 minute underwriting and yeah, you'll be sure to link to that in your website as well. Jeremy, thank you so much for joining us. Audience, if you got value from today's show, please leave us a five-star review. Make sure you're following us on social media and check out what Jeremy is offering as well. I hope you all have a best ever day. Jeremy, thanks again for your time.

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