February 26, 2023

JF3097: Syndications and Senior Assisted Living ft. Matt Jones

Matt Jones is the CEO of Hawkwing Capital, which invests passively and raises capital from other investors for solid deals with proven sponsors.

In this episode, Matt discusses how he went from house-hacking a triplex to becoming an LP and eventually raising capital for his own deals, including how to build relationships through problem-solving, how to communicate with investors when plans and projections change, and why starting as an LP is a great way to get started in syndications.

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Matt Jones | Real Estate Background

  • CEO of Hawkwing Capital
  • Portfolio: 
    • 40 multifamily units 
    • 244 senior assisted living beds
  • Based in: St. Paul, MN
  • Say hi to him at: 
  • Best Ever Book: Green Lights, Matthew McConaughey; Rich Dad Poor Dad, by Robert Kiyosaki
  • Greatest Lesson: Network marketing in his 20s helped Matt come out of his shell as a shy introvert.


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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel, and I'm with today's guest, Matt Jones. Matt is joining us from St. Paul, Minnesota. He is the CEO of Hawking Capital, and invests passively and raises capital from other investors for solid deals with proven sponsors. Matt's portfolio consists of 40 units of multifamily and 244 beds of senior assisted living. Matt, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?

Matt Jones: I'm doing fantastic. How about you, Ash?

Ash Patel: Very well. Matt, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?

Matt Jones: Yes, of course. So I started in 2015 with small multifamily. My first property was a living triplex. So I lived in one unit, rented out the other two. And that went, okay. I had a W-2 at the time, so I was saving up money to be able to buy my next property, which I eventually was able to do, but it was just going so slowly, and I thought "Man, there has to be a better way." But I realized I'm doing all this on my own. "Okay, I've gotta take a nice big slice of humble pie and start working with other people." So I started reaching out, joining meetups, finding people to potentially partner with. And I learned at this time about real estate syndication, which as many of your listeners know, is essentially pooling your resources together to buy much larger properties than you could on your own. And I realized that solved all my problems for me. I know it was no longer dependent upon my ability to save up money from my W-2 as a down payment, and I could just scale up... Versus trading the triplex for a 10-plex and going slow route from there, I can just join into a 100-unit plus multifamily.

So I LP-ed in a few deals, so passively invested in a few deals, and then I did my first capital raise actually this past year for a 229-unit deal in Lexington. And that went okay. So now I'm focused on doing more capital raising, specifically through the fund to funds model for future deals.

Ash Patel: Okay, so you've got to take me through this... You had a triplex, and in your mind you knew that you can go from that to 100 plus unit apartment buildings. Explain that to me, please.

Matt Jones: Well, my original thought was that I would buy a triplex, and then save up money, buy another two to four unit place, and then just keep on trading those up through 1031, to a 10-plex, to a 20-plex, and eventually, in many years, to be able to do a 100-unit. But I realized that syndication was an excellent vehicle to be able to get there much much faster. Because when you separate yourself from your own ability in your own work that you do, to now working as a team with other people, you can go a lot faster, a lot farther, than you ever could on your own.

Ash Patel: Got it. So what were the partners that you were specifically seeking out at these meetups?

Matt Jones: I was seeking people who were already experienced doing what I needed to know how to do. So people that had already been through the wringer, already done 100-unit plus deals, and knew what they were doing. Because I certainly did not know what I was doing at that time. So I had to meet some of these people, and figure out how I could add value to them. Because me coming from only doing small multifamily, how much value could I offer them? I couldn't just jump in and run their properties for them. I had to figure out other specific ways to add value to them, which I was able to do, and build relationships to be able to get some bigger deals done.

Ash Patel: How did you add value?

Matt Jones: Well, the first guy I met, he was doing a presentation at a meetup group that I was attending, and I realized that he knew exactly what I needed to know with real estate syndication. But I noticed that he had some difficulty with the technology. So PowerPoint was giving him some trouble, the Microsoft Excel sheet he was using was giving him some trouble... So I went up to him after the meetup and I said, "Hey, nice to meet you. Here's how I can solve your PowerPoint problem for you", and "Here's how I can solve your Microsoft Excel problem for you. I'm unreasonably computer savvy." And he was nodding and saying "Yes, yes, that sounds great." So he reached out to me later, he had some other computer things he needed help with, which I gladly helped him with, and then he just needed more help, and we just developed the relationship from there.

Ash Patel: And what came out of that relationship?

Matt Jones: Well, he became my mentor. So he really walked me through a lot of the things that I could learn through other means, but it just went a lot faster with him holding my hand, essentially, to learning the things that I needed to know, how to analyze the market, how to choose a market, how to find and build broker relationships... All these kinds of things that it would take me forever to try to figure out on my own.

Ash Patel: Matt, what was your first deal after the triplex?

Matt Jones: It was another triplex, actually. That was from me saving up my money to be able to buy that other triplex, which I self-managed for a while, but then it just got to be too big of a pain in the butt with my W-2 at the time, so then I ended up hiring a property manager. And I guess that was a big step for me of giving up the control and giving up some of the profits in order to free up my time to be able to build up my business.

Ash Patel: Beyond the triplex, what was the next big one?

Matt Jones: Okay, so after that it was a 15-unit, and then 40 units, and then the 244 beds of senior assisted living.

Ash Patel: The 15-unit - did you take that down yourself?

Matt Jones: No, it was through a syndication.

Ash Patel: Can you walk us through that deal and the numbers, please?

Matt Jones: Well, I was a limited partner in the deal, and it actually just closed this past year... So it went full cycle rather, I should say. So I forget off the top my head what the IRR was, but in the three years that I owned it, I almost doubled my money.

Ash Patel: If you were looking to take down deals actively, why did you invest as an LP?

Matt Jones: Well, simple. That's a great way to learn how to do syndication, to learn from an LP side what you should expect from the syndication sponsor, for communication-wise, for returns-wise, how it works with the renovations and things. So you can look back behind the curtain and really see how it's done, without you having to do any work.

Ash Patel: Matt, what were some things that went right, and that went wrong on that LP deal?

Matt Jones: The communication was really good. So I had actually invested with the same guy again in a 40-unit deal later on... And then I appreciated that, and I realized, to have that consistent and good communication throughout, regardless of when there are hiccups - and there were some hiccups with the renovations, with achieving the rent projections... But he was able to work through that and explain the plan for working through that. So I felt rest assured that even though not everything was going according to plan, we were going to get there in the end, where we had planned.

Ash Patel: How often do they communicate?

Matt Jones: At least monthly. So there were the monthly emails, and then when there was more things going on that we needed to be aware of, he would either reach out to us by phone, or send more emails.

Ash Patel: Man, that's a tough one. When did you find out that they weren't going to achieve their rent projections? And how was it that you found that out?

Matt Jones: That was through email, because it wasn't as of a serious kind of thing. And besides that, he was able to explain what exactly was going on, what was causing the difficulty, and the plan behind how to correct that. So I really felt an email was just fine for that. So I was perfectly alright with that.

Ash Patel: Did that make you nervous, in that you might not get your preferred payments?

Matt Jones: It did make it so we weren't getting as much of the preferred return as we had hoped... But we were able to come back and be made whole later. So I'm a very patient person; I think that's important quality to have in real estate, especially right now. So with any kind of real estate, if you can just hold on to it for long enough, then eventually you'll make money. And I guess that was my attitude with that. But even though it's not getting the immediate returns that I had hoped, in the end, it'll get me what I want.

Ash Patel: I applaud your patience. I'm from Jersey, and I am not patient, and I get emotional... So if you would, go back in time to when you saw that email, and tell me the emotions. What did you feel? And to the best of your recollection, how did they portray that? Because that's a great example of delivering bad news. And here you are, taking it pretty well. So let's use that as a lesson for other syndicators out there. One, how did it make you feel? And then I guess first, how did they word that email?

Matt Jones: Oh, how did they word an email from a couple years ago? That is a good question... Well, what I remember is I had some frustration and some surprise, certainly. But at the same time, with my own properties there was frustrations and surprise as well of my own ability to get rent, and achieve my plans. So this didn't seem as bad, because I trusted him. So it wasn't as severe, I guess, of a situation as I had experienced in my own property management before. So I guess I wasn't as worried considering that, with that perspective, that it seemed like it was going to be okay, essentially.

And because he had specific plans, how to get the projections to be achieved, I wasn't as worried. So I guess his approach was more, "Hey, there's this thing going on, and this is the impact over the overall plan, but here's the specific things I'm going to do to correct it. And that made me rest assured that it was going to be okay."

Ash Patel: Matt, with the pref payment, how long was that going to be paused for?

Matt Jones: Well, the pref payment wasn't paused at that point; it was more reduced. But then we were able to get caught back up on it later. So it was just a few months or so that it was reduced.

Ash Patel: Okay, so they presented a problem along with a solution, made you feel good about it, good lesson learned... What was your next investment?

Matt Jones: The next investment after that was a 40 unit with the same guy. And that's been going splendidly since the very beginning. There's really been no issues with that.

Ash Patel: What are the returns on that deal?

Matt Jones: If I remember correctly, it's a 17% IRR, with a 7% pref and a 70/30 split after the pref.

Ash Patel: On the first deal, are you still at a 7% pref?

Matt Jones: The first deal went full cycle. So it's already closed out. But that was a 7% pref as well.

Ash Patel: What was the IRR in the first deal that closed?

Matt Jones: It was - I want to say 16% or 17%. Something like that.

Ash Patel: And was that the projected IRR?

Matt Jones: The projected was 15%.

Ash Patel: Alright, good. And the 40-unit preferred payments go out quarterly?

Matt Jones: They actually go out monthly.

Ash Patel: Monthly. As an LP, how important is that?

Matt Jones: Well, I think I'd be okay with quarterly actually. The monthly is nice, because there's that regular money coming in. But at the same time, there's the admin costs of doing it monthly, which eats into my profits... So I don't need the money per se to come monthly. So I'd actually prefer quarterly. Fewer admin costs, more profits for me... But I guess it just depends on what your needs are. If you need it as monthly income, as an LP, then monthly is great. But if you're able to not need it each month, then quarterly is a better option, in my opinion.

Ash Patel: On that 40 unit investment, what due diligence did you do?

Matt Jones: I underwrote the property myself with my own underwriting model that I got from my mentor, just to make sure that it was going to pencil out to be what the main guy was projecting.

Ash Patel: And what was the verdict on that?

Matt Jones: The verdict was he had a pretty accurate with his underwriting.

Ash Patel: How long are you into this deal?

Matt Jones: About a year and a half, two years, something like that.

Ash Patel: And I'm assuming all as well?

Matt Jones: All as well, yes.

Ash Patel: Good.

Matt Jones: What was your next investment?

Ash Patel: That was the 244 beds of senior assisted living.

Matt Jones: How did you get into that?

Ash Patel: So that one my mentor put it on, and I have a background in group home management, so I feel pretty well versed in the operations side of assisted living kinds of facilities... And it seemed like a really good deal, because it appraised for $17 million, but we bought it for $14 million. And this is, in my opinion, a really good time to buy a senior assisted living, and so I was really excited about it from the get-go... Since the number of seniors is only going to grow. With the baby boomers getting to be at that position where they're almost needing assisted living, and memory care, and that sort of thing, now's a great time to buy into it to really stabilize those kinds of assets to ride the silver tsunami that's coming.

Ash Patel: What are the returns on that deal?

Matt Jones: Well, we're projecting a 22% IRR. However, it hasn't cashflowed yet, after just a little over a year. So I'm extra patient with this one, and I have to be.

Ash Patel: Was the anticipation that you would get quarterly prefs on this?

Matt Jones: Yes.

Ash Patel: What went wrong? And you haven't received any yet?

Matt Jones: Correct.

Ash Patel: But here you are, saying these are great investments...

Matt Jones: I am.

Ash Patel: Let's dive in, man; let's figure this one out. I'm confused.

Matt Jones: Yeah, very good. Well, it's a great investment for the long-term. Essentially, when we got it, the occupancy rate was pretty low. Unfortunately, the residents passed away during the pandemic, and the operator fell behind; I guess was overwhelmed and just wanted out, essentially. So they weren't really doing a very good job of filling the vacancies. And the problem is as well that we've been having a similar problem of filling those vacant units, and then the property management company has not been up to par, what we were expecting. So we're currently in process of firing the property manager and replacing them with somebody else.

Ash Patel: Okay. So the previous owner let her get rundown, didn't care about filling beds. Was it the same PM company that the previous owner had, or you implemented a new one PM company?

Matt Jones: Yeah, we got a new PM company, that has a good reputation, had a good experience with senior assisted living, and we thought that they would do a good job. But unfortunately, that hasn't been the case.

Ash Patel: Okay, so when you took over -- and when I say you, are you a GP on this deal as well?

Matt Jones: No, I'm an LP in this one.

Ash Patel: You're an LP. Okay. So when the new syndicators, when they took over, they gave the old management company, so to speak, a chance; they didn't perform, and then they brought in a new company?

Matt Jones: No, no, they brought a new one in right away.

Ash Patel: From the get-go, okay.

Matt Jones: From day one. Yeah.

Ash Patel: Okay. And the new company failed to perform?

Matt Jones: Yes.

Ash Patel: Do you know what their biggest mistakes were?

Matt Jones: They haven't been doing a good enough job of filling vacant units and keeping staff.

Ash Patel: Okay. So how are they going to find a better property management company, or facilities management company?

Matt Jones: Well, that's a good question. I think we might end up having to create our own property management company. So I may step in from the LP side to the GP side to assist with that oversight, if needed, just because of my background.

Ash Patel: Matt, you now raise capital. Did you raise capital for this deal as well?

Matt Jones: Not this one. I wasn't at that point yet.

Ash Patel: And are you still confident that you will get your 22% IRR on this deal?

Matt Jones: Yes. Actually, I hope that we hold this property for 10+ years, to be honest. I am completely anticipating it to be a cash cow.

Ash Patel: Got it.

Matt Jones: How much communication do you have with the operators today, especially because things are not going well?

Matt Jones: Well, I get monthly emails from the operators, to give me the information... And then I actually co-host a podcast with the main guy, so I talk to him every week.

Ash Patel: So they are very accessible for you.

Matt Jones: Yes.

1:Got it. Alright, so thank you, again, for sharing all of you that. Take us through the journey of becoming a capital raiser, please.

Matt Jones: Well, you start like most people, with your friends and family, by talking to them about what you do... And it's not so much a matter of sales as it is sharing opportunities. If you've got this good thing going on with real estate, you probably want to share it with people that you know and care about already, whether they're friends, family, business associates, acquaintances, that sort of thing. And so that's where you start, talking with those people. Granted, depending on who you know already, maybe you know some accredited investors, maybe you know non-accredited investors, so you have to kind of adjust what kind of deals you're raising for based on that... And then, again, it's sharing opportunities with them and just having conversations about what they want, and how you can help them to achieve those goals. And then after you sort of exhaust your friends and family, now you have to expand by going on social media, adding value to people, going to meetups, or conferences, or things like that, to be able to expand your network.

Break: [00:17:54.18]

Ash Patel: Once you get a number of LPs, what information do you have on them?

Matt Jones: Well, I want to know what their investment goals are, how much they're investing, how much they have available to invest, what kind of returns they're expecting, what sort of properties that they're interested in investing in... So then based on my investor base, I can mold that around to what kinds of deals I'm looking for.

Ash Patel: And that's where people that want a monthly check, versus maybe a semi-annual, will get that information... Because for a lot of people, it's just an accounting headache, entering those monthly checks in. But some people, maybe that are retired, living on a fixed income, they need and want those monthly checks. So you capture all of that data?

Matt Jones: Yes, exactly. That's in there as well. And I think it's important to have an investor avatar, so an idea of what your ideal investor looks like, what their situation looks like. So you know that from the get-go. And now when you're networking, when you're reaching out to people, you're doing social media, you're keeping that avatar in mind, so you're attracting more people just like them. So you don't have a wide variety of investors per se, that want different things, and are expecting different things, but rather you have a niche of a specific kind of investor, with specific goals, and you're becoming the best capital raiser for that.

Ash Patel: That's interesting. And what is the avatar that you've created?

Matt Jones: I'm still refining that, I'll say. But essentially, it's a high income earning professional, specifically I like people in the medical field, who are too busy to do it themselves; to find the deals, to find the operators, to do the underwriting... And so I do that on their behalf, essentially. So I can find the deals, and underwrite them, and understand what's a good deal and what's not a good deal... But I think more importantly, I'm able to find the syndication sponsors who know what they're doing. Because the sponsor makes the deal work or not work; you could have the best deal in the world, but if it has a bad operator, they're going to run that south pretty quickly. But a good operator will make a deal, even if it's not working out very well, can make it work out in the end.

Ash Patel: Matt, let's say your ideal investors and your ideal investments are running around 15% annualized returns, and you find somebody that is okay with a 6% to 8% return, but just wants something very safe. What do you do with that person? Do you turn them away?

Matt Jones: Well, not necessarily... I explain to them what I do and how it works, and want to understand their risk tolerance. And maybe they're willing to deploy some capital in what I have going on, or maybe not. I'm okay referring them on to an index fund, or something else that might better suit them. Because even if somebody doesn't invest with me, if I can present them with a good image of me, a good relationship by adding value to them first, then maybe they'll invest with me later, or maybe they'll tell somebody else about me, like "Hey, invest with Matt. He's a stand-up guy." So I don't worry so much about getting each person I meet to invest with me. I'm more focused on adding value to other people first, in some way, shape, or form.

Ash Patel: Got it. One of the questions that I often wonder are what do they currently invest in today, outside of real estate? Because I would imagine a lot of your investors are newer to real estate, is that right?

Matt Jones: Yes.

Ash Patel: So where do they primarily put their money today, and with whom?

Matt Jones: It's primarily stocks, bonds, mutual funds... So there's an education piece there that I have to provide, to help them understand what real estate does that maybe their other investments don't do, and that by investing as an equity partner in real estate, that actually helps diversify their portfolio to be safer as a result.

Ash Patel: And what are some of those benefits to investing in real estate, when historically all you've done is put money in public markets?

Matt Jones: Well, there's tax advantages that the stock market absolutely does not have. So as an equity partner in a syndication, you get what's called a K-1, which helps you to reduce your tax liability with the income you're making. And if you're a real estate professional, or if your spouse is, then your real estate tax benefits can override into some of your earned income as well.

Ash Patel: Let's dive into that. So obviously, if the doctor or their spouse are not real estate professionals, are there any tax benefits for them?

Matt Jones: Well, for the income that they make off their real estate specifically, certainly, because with these large multifamily and senior assisted living, they are always going to do cost segregation studies to propel the tax benefits faster than they normally would. And then the other piece of the pie is the equity, because you own a piece of the equity, so then you're getting cashflow along the way, as well as a bigger payout once the property either sells or refinances. And I actually like refinancing when it makes sense to do anyway, because you can pull out some or all of your original capital, and still make money from the deal.

Ash Patel: Matt, I would imagine you have a lot of happy investors at the end of the year when they receive that negative K-1, even though they receive pref checks... So they're making money, but not paying taxes on it. What happens when that asset sells, and they get hit with a depreciation recapture?

Matt Jones: Well, it depends on what they do with that capital. I'm not a tax professional, or a lawyer, or anything like that, so I can't give any legal or advice with that... But there are ways essentially to redeploy that capital to defer the taxes; otherwise you can pay the tax bill, certainly. I prefer the idea of delay, delay, delay, and then die, when it comes to your paying your taxes.

Ash Patel: And then with the couple or individual that is a real estate professional, how do they get a benefit from their passive investments?

Matt Jones: Well, in addition to the benefits directly from the real estate ownership, now the tax write-offs can override into some of your earned income as well, so that way they're paying less taxes off of their earned income.

Ash Patel: Yeah. So if you are a high net worth individual, and your wife or husband is a real estate professional, then you have the ability to write off active losses.

Matt Jones: Correct.

Ash Patel: Good. And how many of your investor base individuals fall into that category?

Matt Jones: One.

Ash Patel: Once you have this pool of investors, how do you approach GPs to get into their deals?

Matt Jones: Well, you have to build up the relationships first, because I'm doing what's called fund to funds... So not to get too into the nitty-gritty, but essentially, there has to be a separate classification of shares to handle what I'm doing. So I have to build up these relationships with sponsors before they're offering a deal, so that they know "Here's about what I can raise", and they can determine a value based on that, and then give a little better return for my group of investors than they're giving for everybody else, because we're coming in at one bigger chunk, and have more buying power. So I'm networking with the sponsors, learning about them, they're learning about me, and what I have to offer with the fund of funds... So that way when they do have the deal, they've already built in this other classification of shares to work with my fund.

Ash Patel: And now there's a lot of pressure on you, because not only are you investing your own capital, but you might have 10 or 15 people behind you, and you're making a decision that's collectively going to invest everyone's capital.

Matt Jones: Correct.

Ash Patel: I would imagine the due diligence is significant for that.

Matt Jones: Yes. I have a fiscal responsibility to my investors, because like you say, I am also investing my own money, but I'm okay with gambling my money. But I'm not gonna gamble other people's money. It's just not fathomable to me. I want to be really sure that a particular investment is going to give the kinds of returns - at least it's not going to lose my investors' capital, number one, and then also importantly, that it's going to get the returns that we're hoping for. So I pay close attention to what's projected, and determine whether it's real or not real.

Ash Patel: Matt, in terms of communication, do you just forward on communication from the syndicator, or do you parse it and put into your own words, and forward it to your investors?

Matt Jones: Well, I parse it into my own words, because I also want them to understand maybe some things that the original syndicators email didn't include... Because I want my investors to be well-informed. Granted, they don't even have to open up my emails if they don't want, but for those that do, I want them to truly understand what's going on, and what they can expect in the future.

Matt Jones: And as a fund-of-funds sponsor, how do you make your money?

Matt Jones: Well, I take on a fee for managing the fund; I have my passive money that I personally invest, so I'm making money through that way as well, just like any of the other LPs... So I get part of the fee from negotiating with the sponsors for a little better return... So I keep some of that extra delta or difference, the extra return for myself, but I also share some with my investors. So my investors do better on the property by investing through the fund, than they would if they had directly invested into the property.

Ash Patel: Matt, is there a situation in where you have a preference of whether you want to bring in all the capital, or is that not a good idea? Do you want other capital coming in as well?

Matt Jones: I think it's good to have multiple people coming in. If I use only my capital, or what do you mean?

Ash Patel: No, I'm thinking, if I'm raising capital for a deal, do I really want 10 different investors coming in? Or do I just want Matt coming in, and all the investors fall under him? Now I'm thinking in my head some pros and cons... It's streamlined for me as the syndicator, because I only have to answer to you. The problem is, I only have to answer to you, and it might be easier to deliver bad news, versus delivering it times 10, 20 or 30 people. So do you have a preference on if you're willing to take on the entire asset raise, or if you always want others in there with you?

Matt Jones: I'd be willing to take on the whole asset raise. It depends on the size of the property. I can raise a million dollars, but right now I couldn't raise $25 million. So if the raise was 25 million, I just wouldn't currently have the capacity for that. However, if it was a smaller property, and it looked like a splendid deal, I'd be happy to. But oftentimes, syndication sponsors, they're doing their own raise as well, so it's really not I guess an option, usually, for me as a fund manager to do all the raise. I'm more of a "alleviate the sponsor's pain" of like, they have to do a $10 million raise, and they can only get to like eight or nine, but I come in with a million dollars, I can really take a deal across the finish line, to make it a lot easier for them to get to their raising goals.

Ash Patel: And that makes a lot of sense. I'll give you an example of what prompted this question. Or maybe this will help illustrate why I asked it. A couple of weeks ago I had a friend of mine call me... It was a Thursday, he's like, "Ash, I need $1.8 million by Monday." And every time this guy calls me, it's always a great story. And it's always something last-minute.

So he had a hard money lender, but he was going to pay way too much in interest for this money... So it's not like he had to have the money from me, but I put together a group of people, two of which are my business partners, and one of them is very well versed in high-level, family office type institutional debt... And the other two people that I brought in were attorneys and friends of mine. So now I've got three very well-qualified people looking at the deed, looking at all the paperwork... And essentially, it was my lazy way out of doing due diligence. So that's where I wonder, bringing in additional people... So now we had several conference calls, with his entire team of people asking questions... I would have just written him a check and hoped for the best, but I'm glad there's others involved, which is why with these syndications and raising capital for them, I would almost want other teams or other investors involved, to get more eyes on whatever's being disseminated... Whether it's emails, or pref payments, or reifies... So that's why I asked the question, and you're right, often they raise their own capital. So that makes a lot of sense. Matt, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Matt Jones: Well, it goes hand in hand with what you've just said - real estate is a team sport. If you try to do it on your own, like maybe you can do some stuff... But working with other people and good quality people is going to propel you a lot faster and further than you could on your own.

Ash Patel: Great advice. It took me way too long to learn that. Matt, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Matt Jones: Absolutely.

Ash Patel: Alright. Matt, what's the Best Ever book you've recently read?

Matt Jones: Greenlights by Matthew McConaughey. It was a really good story about his experiences and striving through the challenges that he faced with growing his acting career.

Ash Patel: Matt, what's the Best Ever way you like to give back?

Matt Jones: I like to volunteer at a group home for people with disabilities, but then I also have these bags that I put together for homeless people... So when I'm driving around, running errands and I see somebody begging for a dollar or whatever, I give them a little bag of goodies instead of money, so that they can actually use it.

Ash Patel: And Matt, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?

Matt Jones: Well, they can go to my website, Hawkwingcapital.com, and I'll give them either a free copy of one of the chapters from my book about real estate, or they can learn about my podcast stuff going on, or join my subscription list to learn about the deals that I have coming forth.

Ash Patel: Matt, thank you so much for your time today, sharing your journey with us, starting out as an LP investor, now doing a funds of funds model, sharing a lot of nuances in both the LP investments, as well as managing other people's money. So thank you again for your time.

Matt Jones: Thanks, Ash.

Ash Patel: Best Ever listeners, thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review. Share this podcast with someone you think can benefit from it. Also, follow, subscribe, and have a Best Ever day.

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