March 25, 2024

JF3490: The Great Basis Reset, Wheel-and-Spoke Markets, and Exiting a 500-Unit Multifamily Deal ft. Irwin Boris




Irwin Boris, senior vice president of investments at Heritage Capital Group, joins host Ash Patel on the Best Ever Show. In this episode, Irwin and Ash nerd out on the nuances of industrial real estate, including small-bay flex, outfitting spaces for unique tenants, why Irwin covets “wheel-and-spoke” markets. Irwin also shares his thoughts on the current economic climate and explains why he’s selling a 500-unit multifamily property despite it not being the best time to sell.

Irwin Boris | Real Estate Background

      • Heritage Capital Group
      • Portfolio:
        • 7MM SF of industrial, small bay flex and 500 units of legacy multifamily
      • Based in: Ridgewood, NJ & Bozeman MT
      • Say hi to him at: 

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Ash Patel (00:01.646)
Hello, best ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Irwin Boris. Irwin is joining us from Ridgewood, New Jersey. He is the senior vice president of investments at Heritage Capital Group. They focus on cashflow investments. Irwin's portfolio consists of seven million square feet of industrial small bay flex, 500 units of legacy multifamily.

Irwin, thank you for joining us and how are you today?

Irwin Boris (00:33.668)
No, thank you for having me. I'm doing well. And actually that 500 unit multifamily deal is going into contract to be sold tomorrow. Someone made me an offer I can't refuse and given what the operating costs are on apartments, I'd rather not wait for insurance prices to come down. But thank you for having me. Sure.

Ash Patel (00:53.366)
Well, let's start the conversation with that. Is this one property with 500 units?

Irwin Boris (00:58.643)
It's actually 400 and 448 units. It was single property. It's in Virginia Beach. It's right next to Oceana, which is the Top Gun flight school on the East Coast. So you sit at the pool and the F-18s, the F-35s scream out over the pool, but it's the sound of freedom. And if you're there in the summer times and you're on the beachfront hotels, you can be amazed at watching these birds put down on the carrier deck and take off again.

So it's a beautiful site. Well, we've owned it for six years. And for us and some of our partners, it was a place to park and exchange when we bought it. We assumed the debt, the still term on the debt. And it's a 2X on a multiple. When the insurance prices, as everybody know, went crazy.

Ash Patel (01:30.134)
Why are you selling now? This is not a great time to sell.

Irwin Boris (01:57.767)
We got kicked out of a multi-asset policy with the management company because the reinsurers dropped out. And then if you were within 10 miles of a coast or you were built pre 2000, they deemed you uninsurable. It's only a temporary thing. I know that insurance has already come down substantially from where we had to place the insurance a year ago, but it's not what we do. It's not what we focus on anymore. And we'd like to take the money off the table, put it into more industrial logistics.

And wait the 18 to 24 months for multifamily to market, to reprice, as all these distressed deals clear the markets. And I call this the great basis reset opportunity. And that's on all asset classes. We know what's going on with office buildings, with people like Brookfield giving them back. And San Francisco is empty. And even in Manhattan, a lot of them are empty, or the rents are coming down. But

But we like it as an asset class, the family's made its money in that asset class, and we tend to be in asset classes where aren't popular, except now industrial is getting popular, but we have a way of doing what we do to be successful.

Ash Patel (03:13.214)
Irwin, how many years have you been in this real estate investing game?

Irwin Boris (03:18.007)
Well, I guess if you include my days as an accountant, when I was just practicing CPA, I've probably been doing this 30 years. Everything from being the auditor that looked at your books and records to being a lender. Spent 10 years with GMAC commercial mortgage, which has now evolved into Brickadia and other lenders and working for other family real estate platforms. It's about 30 years. So I've been an owner, an operator, a lender, a broker, and advisor, and I've got to see it from pretty much everybody's point of view.

Ash Patel (03:54.718)
Have you always done industrial or was it just a long run of multifamily and now you're pivoting?

Irwin Boris (04:01.547)
No, the guys, the principals at Heritage Capital have always done multifamily, industrial with their multifamily. And a few years ago, they sold an asset that the family held for almost 40 years. It was a multi-level industrial building with monstrous mushroom columns. And it's actually the building where they built the engine for the spirit of St. Louis. We're going to talk about history.

There was one portfolio they sold three years ago. They held that for, it was 12 years, and then redeployed their capital into more industrial. It's a sleepy asset. It's boring. It's so boring, it just pays cash flow. That's why we like it. We're not buying Amazon or Coca-Cola or Estee Lauder that people want to put on their corporate brochures.

We're buying stuff in secondary markets off of main roads where tenants have a need to be there and the tenants will always be there.

Ash Patel (05:08.81)
Have you shifted away from multifamily currently?

Irwin Boris (05:14.152)
We have shifted away from all-

Ash Patel (05:14.678)
Are you actively looking for multi-family deals?

Irwin Boris (05:18.147)
We are looking and I've looked at some distressed deals where someone sent me a deal. The sponsor was in distress. Their basis is $180,000 a unit. They're willing to sell it for $110,000 a unit. And the purpose is, my thoughts, where they want to sell it basically for a million dollars over the mortgage just so they don't have a Freddie Mac foreclosure on their record. But I would have to spend a million and a half dollars to replace the interest rate cap before I brought money in to renovate the rest of the apartments and bring the occupancy up.

And it was in the wrong location. It never should have been a deal anybody bought. And we look at a lot of multifamily. And one thing I do is I like to see how many times that they've traded over the last 12 plus years. Sometimes these things trade every three or four years. And in some of them, I know the assets. I actually am able to find some of the old offering memos from the brokers.

And how many times can you tell me the business plan as to you're going to renovate a kitchen in a bathroom and put a new floor in appliances, you know, every four years they don't need it. So some of them are laughable. I'd like to buy apartments. Yes. Because, you know, you think about the day of the internet and you shop online, you, everything is remote. You get your groceries delivered, but you need a physical place to put your head.

Ash Patel (06:36.334)
Do you buy retail or office?

Irwin Boris (06:38.731)
We have owned a lot of office over the years. That's how I met the family 20 years ago and I was their banker. And we've cycled out of office with the exception of two really long-term holds. One is in Birmingham, Alabama, and the other one is in Greenville, South Carolina. And those we have very low leverage on and they're more institutional quality and nobody's moved out. So I'm not facing any pending vacancies. 

But office, I think what's going to happen is although you read about the back to work movement where all the employers want their employees back and they are getting a lot of resistance. And so I think a lot of people, a lot of employers to keep their staff, key staff are adopting some sort of flexible scheduling. So it may be three days or four days. And I think what's going to happen is when those leases renew, they're going to scale back slightly.

And so there's going to be a problem with office. And we're seeing some interesting opportunities in office, but we're not there yet. And again, with the wall of maturities and distress, I think some of the office buildings should be converted to apartments. That's why I worked down on Wall Street. We saw a lot of the C office buildings around us got converted very successful, only so, to apartments. But right now I'm not ready for office yet. There's no cashflow.

Ash Patel (08:03.755)
What about retail?

Irwin Boris (08:05.823)
Retail is, you know, I would buy retail. I'd buy a grocery anchored center where you had, you know, the Hallmark store, the dry cleaner, the fast food, you know, the CVS, all that other stuff that was in there. There are some of those that are interesting on a cap rate basis. The question is, you know, what's the longevity? You know, you look at the chains, the chain, uh, grocery chains like Kroger is merging. Do they downsize some of the stores now? So you have to wait for some of that to shake out.

But I think neighborhood retail is always going to be full if it's in the right location, in the right neighborhood, and you've got a good traffic pattern. Luxury retail, a lot of the malls, there's always some vacant spaces. Some of the anchors have gone out. And we've tried to buy some of the anchors where they were owned by like Lord and Taylor or K-Mot. And the municipalities won't let us rezone those. We would have made them either self-storage or industrial.

Ash Patel (08:59.99)
You guys are all in on industrial with seven million square feet. Where are those properties located?

Irwin Boris (09:06.187)
We have some great tenants like General Dynamics down in Chesapeake, Virginia, who does a lot of work for the Navy. We have also in that same area, we have First Data. You lose your credit card, you call them right off Express. They call First Data, they get that metal card, ship that overnight to you. They can't move it, especially in that location. The building is built around a 20,000 square foot steel vault.

But we're in Chesapeake, Virginia, Norfolk, Virginia, we're in Indiana, we're in Ohio, Montana, upstate New York, Pennsylvania. So we look for markets where the tenants have a need to be there. Either they are a special purpose, you need to be there or you're within a day's drive of either coast. So 65, 75, 85, 95, sort of north to south, 20, 70, 90, 66 go east to west.

And again, some of my favorite cities are what we call Wheel and Spoke. We have a perimeter road that goes around, whether it's Atlanta, whether it's Cincinnati, whether it's Columbus or Indianapolis. Then you have all the other highways that bisect it that make it look like a wheel.

Ash Patel (10:14.214)
Irwin, when you say small bay flex, how small of a property are we talking about?

Irwin Boris (10:19.231)
It's not necessarily a property size, it's your tenant size. So you might have 150,000 square feet, but you might have tenants at a 3000 square feet, you might have tenants at a 30,000 square feet. And it's flexible, meaning that I could expand or divide the spaces depending on the tenants need. If a large, I got ahead of 30,000 square foot tenant in 35,000 square foot tenant vacate, I'm slicing it up into three pieces. I got two out of the three pieces leased already.

But it's also flexible as far as the tenants use, you will have delivery doors in the back. And some years that will be 100% office use and finish. And some years it will be 15 or 20% office use and finish. Think of the painter, your electrician, the plumber, they need some office space for their people and they need the place for parts and supplies. That's really what the small bay flex, it's also typically 20 or 24 foot ceiling heights where typical the newer industrial is 32 or 36 or as Amazon builds 90 square, 90 feet tall buildings now in some municipalities. So it's called Flex because it's flexible in use, flexible in size, flexible in finish.

Ash Patel (11:29.874)
I do want to find out that what's the smallest property that you'll buy? Is it 50,000, 100,000 square feet?

Irwin Boris (11:36.503)
We bought a hundred thirty hundred forty five thousand square foot one out in Miami's Berg, Ohio a few years back. I'm looking at one now that's 70,000 feet only because I already owned a couple miles away, but sort of an add on and, and the seller for some reason just wants out, he's like, make me an offer. I made him a ridiculous offer and he accepted it. I thought he was going to tell me to pound salt, but you know, I'm happy to buy on a 10% return on leverage fully occupied. Uh, so, you know, I'm finding in this market, you got to be bold if you don't ask, you don't get.

Ash Patel (12:13.226)
Okay, so you're typically around the 100,000 mark or higher with some exceptions.

Irwin Boris (12:16.667)
Yeah, minimum on the hundred side, but you know, we're also looking at a transaction we're meeting with a seller next week. It's 850,000 square foot multi building park. Uh, it's the same amount of due diligence and effort to close, you know, a hundred thousand square foot, say a $7 million acquisition as it is to close a hundred million dollar transaction. Same amount of effort, same amount of manpower. So, you know, bigger is better.

But sometimes, like we sold an industrial portfolio several years back, it was three states, nine cities, and it was all pieced together to get to 2.6 million square feet. So you could also create mass that way if you can sort of connect the dots.

Ash Patel (12:59.13)
And Irwin, in terms of the size of each individual bay, is 10,000 the smallest?

Irwin Boris (13:06.439)
No, typically in small bay, you might have a 5,000 square foot tenant, depending what their need is. The smaller spaces are easier to rent to a point. Bigger spaces tend to be vacant longer. And in the traditional industrialist people think of distributions, you might have a lot of 50,000 square foot or 80,000 square foot or even larger. We have a property down in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, right outside of Nashville, I have 50,000 square feet.

I have Pillsbury, they store all those little blue tubes of poppin' fresh dough in my building because their factory's down the road. And they're 50,000 square feet. And then I have a nine acre parking lot in the back where they rent truck spaces, parking for tractor trailers. So parking is great also in industrial. A lot of people don't think of it. What do you do if you have a lot of surface parking?

Ash Patel (14:01.354)
Yeah, what I'm getting at is what's really popular are really small bays where there are roughly 2,000, 2,500 square foot for the contractor garages, right? Landscapers, drywallers, tankers.

Irwin Boris (14:11.535)
Correct, we have those too. That's what we have. And sometimes they're 2,500 square feet, and sometimes they're 5,000 feet. I'm not setting out, and we see a lot of these for sale sometimes where they're all 3,000 square feet. And we like those because those people have never moved out. Those are people that you think about might've been at one point in their garage and their wife says, get the hell out of here. You're in the house, you're making a mess. So they don't wanna go back to their base or their garage.

So 2,500, 3,000 square feet is good. And in some locations we've seen, again, the plumber, the sheet rocker, the painter, one guy actually grew coral. Somebody raised tropical fish. You know, we see all these interesting uses in some of these really small ones.

Ash Patel (15:00.082)
Yeah, we've had churches open inside of a flex space. Yeah.

Irwin Boris (15:02.799)
Correct. Yes, churches are kind of interesting because there was never any place in the master plan for almost any city to figure out where the houses of worship go. And so a lot of them end up either in, you know, single story office parks, or they end up in this flat space. And I like them as a sort of a complimentary use because they don't need the parking during the week when everybody else does. So they sort of fit in.

Nobody knows they're there. It's just a question of getting comfortable with the lack of credit and not being able to get a significant security deposit if any.

Ash Patel (15:43.422)
Irwin, let's contrast the larger flex spaces with the 2,000, 1,500 square foot spaces, because a lot of our listeners are likely in that space where they're buying flex spaces that might be 10,000, 15,000 square feet, but chopped up into roughly 2,000 square foot spaces. They may not have looked at larger buildings with larger spaces. So let's contrast the 2,000 square foot space with 10,000 square foot individual spaces, let's start with power. What kind of power do you install on the smaller spaces?

Irwin Boris (16:21.795)
Well, the smaller spaces typically have less power. It might be your regular 110, unless there's some appliances that are 220, like your HVAC system. There might be gas in there if you have a ceiling mounted heating plant with a blower. You also tend to get shorter term leases on the really small spaces, two or three years at a time, where once you get five or 7,000 square feet and up, it's easier to get five or even a 10 year lease on some of the space.

Because if the tenant needs a larger space, that's probably gonna make a significant investment on their own, which means they're likely not to move. So, and I think as people that have investments, current investments in some of these smaller spaces, they're great to start to understand the business. These smaller ones are also typically gross leases, where you're not passing through all the operating expenses to the tenants, because the tenants that are typically there don't understand this.

So it might be a gross lease where if you trade up to larger buildings, maybe you had a 50 or 75,000 square foot building, you have slightly larger tenants. There you might, A, you would get better credit. B, you might get longer leases. And C, I think you'd be able to share some of the operating expenses, not all of them, with your tenants.

Ash Patel (17:38.998)
With the larger tenants, do you have to do a deeper credit check on them?

Irwin Boris (17:44.579)
We always do a credit check on them, but the larger tenants are, you definitely can get a security deposit. You can get several months security deposit. A lot of times we look at where they're located now. And I might call the landlord just to see how they as a tenant. Sometimes it's they've outgrown the space or they're moving the space because the CEO or the head of the company lives closer by of something like that, that it's close to their supply routes, move closer to their key customers on some of the really larger spaces. But on the larger spaces, you can typically get better credit tenants.

Ash Patel (18:27.394)
Do you typically get personal guarantees, corporate guarantees, or both?

Irwin Boris (18:32.111)
Sometimes if it's a sole proprietor, you know, somebody has their own LLC, we'll get, we'll ask for a personal guarantee on the rent. In some cases, we do get a corporate guarantee if there's a parent company. Sometimes you get what you can get. Sometimes you get six months security deposit and you know you get a victim in 90 days based on the local municipality.

Ash Patel (18:55.858)
Irwin, which type of asset gives you better returns, the smaller properties or the larger ones?

Irwin Boris (19:01.911)
The smaller ones tend to trade at much higher cap rates. I'm the 70,000 square feet I'm looking at now in Atlanta. That's the asset managers based in Australia. It's their last asset. And they called me up and said, look, we've spoken to you a few times in the last year. Make us an offer. And I made an offer on a 10 cap and I was surprised they accepted it. And my investors are saying, we don't understand why they sell it. I'm like, don't ask. It's a gift. Sometimes you have it. Sometimes it works out that way, but I'm seeing a lot of really small deals.

You know, if you're starting out and you want to buy something with two or three tenants, there's a lot of smaller stuff that, you know, between eight and 10% on leverage return, that's probably under $5 million. Um, you know, if you want to play around with it, uh, that's where I would start. And you might have, you know, two tenants, you know, it might be a hundred thousand square foot building even with, with three tenants and bigger tenants, but there's a lot of low price stuff out there as I think a lot of mom and pops don't know where the future is. And they just want, they've owned it forever. They have no basis in the building and they just want to take their money and go somewhere else.

Ash Patel (20:10.662)
Irwin, you've been in this industry for quite some time and you've seen some market cycles. What are your thoughts about the current state of the economy and real estate investing? Excuse me. And real estate investing. Excuse me. And real estate investing.

Irwin Boris (20:24.859)
Sure. I think that everybody is sort of trashing the Federal Reserve. I think the economy ran really hot for a long time, especially coming out of COVID. There was a tremendous amount of cash that was pumped in, and they probably should have either let the balance sheet run off earlier or started the rate increases at an earlier point in time.

And if you look at the price increase in the cap rate compression that started in like 2010, it went up for such a long time. It was a really long, expansive real estate cycle. And price, you know, how low can cap rates get? You know, how low can interest rates stay? And I think we're overdue for correction. I think that when a tenant is paying, you know, 40 or 50% of their income towards rent is a problem. So I think that maybe that's why, you know, in some areas you're seeing tremendous turnover with the tenants.

And as I said earlier, how many times can you renovate an apartment in 12 years? You look at how many times these things have turned over. So I think the market will get a shakeout. And when I look at who has loans in trouble, wherever city it is, and you look at these guys who are running these platforms, I think a lot of them were in high school or college back in 2007, 2008, 2009, and they've really never seen the waves that the cycle can have over a 20 year period.

And so they were finance guys, they financially engineered stuff. And that's why I think some of it's in trouble. If you didn't have to take a full term interest rate cap, you didn't. But I've also seen on our one remaining apartment building in Virginia Beach when we bought it, I could renovate a one bedroom apartment with a granite countertop, new cabinets, and a plank floor for about 10 or $12,000. Now it's over 20.

So as all this stuff has escalated, the supply chain has caused a lot of this, a shortage of labor. So people just became a little more creative, which I think is gonna cause some of the distress. I've looked at some of the models that some of my investors have from some of their multifamily deals where expenses grew at 1 1⁄2%, while revenue grew at 10% a year. And I also think that some of the investors in the last three years got lazy.

Irwin Boris (22:44.719)
Because if you've been investing in multifamily since 2010, all the leaky boats came off the bottom of the ocean. Everybody was making money hand over fist. And they figured, I made money in the last three syndications, I'm going to do another one. And they did no due diligence on their own. So part of it I have to blame on the investors themselves. But I've seen a lot of creative modeling that's done. And that's why, and actually some investors have told me that the sponsors wouldn't even share a working model with them, which should have been a red flag.

Because you have to be able to stress the deals on your own to see there. So I like real estate as a hard asset I think there's going to be a market correction when you look at, you know $50 billion of maturities the next two years The Federal Reserve is not going to raise drop rates fast enough to rescue all of these deals Some of them will eventually work themselves out. Some of them will get taken back by the banks people unfortunately are gonna lose some money.

Ash Patel (23:40.286)
You know, you mentioned the Federal Reserve, the headlines, the last time Powell spoke was, Fed indicates four rate cuts this, you know, in 2024. And when you watch Powell's speech, he said nothing of the sorts, right? But the world ran with that. Oh, good. The Fed's cutting four times. This morning, it was one Fed president that ended up making that comment. And it was taken way out of context.

This morning I saw a headline in the Wall Street Journal and we're in March of 2024 that said Powell indicates rate cuts are coming. And I didn't dive into the article yet, but your thoughts, real estate people and Wall Street people want to believe that we're getting massive rate cuts coming. What are your thoughts and do you think rates could possibly go up higher?

Irwin Boris (24:32.198)
That was one commentary I heard last week when they're looking at the data. The data is moving in the right direction and I just think they want to see it move some progression and it continue to move in the right direction where consumer prices are going down, employment is maybe just waning off where there's not a lot of job growth. They're looking for enough of the right indicators in succession before they do some rate cuts.

I don't think you see anything before maybe July, if you see one. And if anything, maybe I think it's two rate cuts this year, personally. You know, it's been election year. So, you know, we have one candidate who spins everything that everyone's working against him. And, you know, especially when that he appointed Jerome Powell to begin with, you know, and there's a separation of powers there.

It's hard to land, you know, like the lunar module landing on the moon right side up with a new one that they'd sent up, landed sideways in the news. It's really hard to do that job. And so he's trying to get it right. And then when you look at where the prices have increased, like we're producing more oil now than we have domestically in many years. We just don't have any refining capacity. No one wants to build a refinery. So that's why gas prices are up.

When you look at corporate profits, they're just looking at executive pay and corporate profits and shareholder values. That's why the prices have gone up. There's no reason. The supply chain is fixed. The trucking is there, but no one wants to drop their prices on the retail side. So I think some consumers have more of an issue than others are becoming a little smarter. But I think you will see some rate cuts this year, but I don't really see many in 2024.

If the data continues to go in the right direction, you'll probably see four in 2025 as well.

Ash Patel (26:33.45)
No chance of a rate increase in your opinion?

Irwin Boris (26:36.699)
I think there's always a chance, but I think if they did that, there'd be a big market slide. The market would really sell off and it would really send the wrong message. He's better off saying, it's wait and see. Everything's moving in the right direction. We're confident we'll get to rate cuts because now he knows he's sort of at the right point. Do you go to recession or do you go to a soft landing?

Ash Patel (27:05.31)
Yeah, so control the market sentiment as well. Irwin, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Irwin Boris (27:14.275)
Focus on the cash flow. You can't eat IRR. Don't use projected IRR or projected equity multiple as a tool to make a decision on investing with a sponsor. When we talk to our investors, the first thing it says in my email is based on the contractual rents in place, and we believe the interest rate of X percent, we believe the distributable income to investors will be 8%, 9% because if my business plan is successful and as the rents contractually have increases at 3% or 4% the year, if that cash flow continues to grow, there'll be an upper teen IRR, just the way the math works. I was taught to underwrite real estate on a 3x5 card. If you were happy with the cash return in the first year, which is pretty much unknown, then as you built out your spreadsheet, that's where all the gravy, this significant upside was going to come from.

And we look at every asset as if we're going to own it for a very long time. And so the worst thing that happens is I got 10% a year for 10 years and I got my money back and I got to depreciation. It's not so terrible either. That's not what we're out to do, but that's how we look at it. What's the downside risk? Where I think that some of these value adds where you're buying on a four and financing at a six and a half and you have to bring all this extra capital and buying interest rate caps.

It's got to be a perfectly orchestrated ballet and there's too many factors that I can't control. I don't know how anyone can control what insurance is going to be, my cost of labor, real estate taxes, supply chain for renovations. There's a lot more risk. So you have to really have a lot of risk to go into some kind of investment like that.

Ash Patel (29:04.818)
Irwin, let's wrap this up with the best ever lightning round. What is the best ever book you've recently read?

Irwin Boris (29:11.779)
I read the Orrin Clath book, you know, Flip the Switch, you know, A Half-Tainted Conversation, I heard Robert Chaltini's Psychology of Influence, I liked David Goggins' book, The Navy Seal. So, you know, it's about thinking differently, thinking outside the box. And you never stop learning, even my kids who were in high school and college said, what are you going to send one of us for? Does I have to do this when I get older? I'm like, yeah, because you're never the smartest person in the room, and anybody who tells you they're the smartest person in the room you should run from.

So I'm always out to see somebody else's angle, which is why like today I'm at a conference talking to other people in the industry, just trying to trade notes. What are you seeing in California? What are you seeing in Oregon, Washington state, and Texas? Because I'm in the Northeast and everybody sort of got a similar story of here's where the distress is and they tell me what's going on in California with the multifamily distress and the rent laws and what's going on with industrial.

And it's an education process.

Ash Patel (30:15.054)
And what's the best ever way you like to give back?

Irwin Boris (30:18.727)
I do, I'm open to helping people. They want to send me an investment. They want to talk to me. I actually went during COVID, I have an educator's license to teach in high school in New Jersey. I substitute from now when they call me. I teach financial literacy. And I find that doesn't start young enough with the kids. You can't start it when you're 14 or 15. That really should start younger. I was appalled that, how many people have a checking account? How many people have a debit card and no one's raising their hand in the classroom?

So I believe in giving back. I sat on the advisory committee for Fordham University's real estate institute. We figured out what curriculum we think would be helpful to help people learn what's going on in the world today. I mentored students. I still mentor people that call me with questions. And even at the conference, people tell me what's going on. I try to help a solution. I'm not out to make money, I'm out to give back because I would think in doing this for so many years, I've learned something and if I can help somebody, it'll come back to me somehow. It's called karma.

Ash Patel (31:19.07)
Irwin, how can the best ever listeners reach out to you?

Irwin Boris (31:22.511)
Sure, you can, it's heri or it's irwin at heri or simply you put Irwin Boris in the search bar, Google, and you'll find me. I'm highly searchable, so. And there'll be multiple ways to get me.

Ash Patel (31:36.438)
Well, Irwin, thank you so much for your time today. And you've got an amazing outlook on the history of real estate, the outlook on the economy and real estate. Thank you for sharing your time with us today.

Irwin Boris (31:48.267)
No, thanks for having me Ash. I really enjoyed this. I would do it again in a later day. Thank you.

Ash Patel (31:54.338)
Best ever listeners, thank you for joining us as well. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review, share this podcast with someone that can benefit from it. Also follow, subscribe and have a best ever day.

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