Brian Green is the owner/operator at Green Springs Capital Group, which develops and redevelops multifamily properties. In this episode, Brian discusses starting his own property management company, how his value-add projects quickly led to development & redevelopment, and why he focuses on projects in Upstate New York.
Brian Green | Real Estate Background
- Owner/operator at Green Springs Capital Group, which develops and redevelops multifamily properties.
- 110 units, including five short-term rental units
- Based in: Saratoga Springs, NY
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: Principles by Ray Dalio
- Greatest Lesson: Self-management = building a company.
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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Brian Green. Brian is joining us from Saratoga Springs, New York. He's the owner-operator at Green Springs Capital Group, where they develop and redevelop multifamily properties. The company self manages with a mindset of long-term hold for cash flow. Brian's portfolio consists of 110 units and five short-term rentals. Brian, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Brian Green: I'm doing fantastic, and honored to be on the show.
Ash Patel: The pleasure is ours, Brian. Before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Brian Green: Absolutely. So my business career actually started in retail, just out of college. I had gotten into wireless retail, so Verizon Wireless stores. I did that for 11 years; I opened stores across upstate New York, and then Western Mass, and Vermont... And you can imagine, in retail it turns into a little bit of a grind over time... So we built that up, and then I sold it off in 2014, and transitioned into real estate. I started buying small multifamily properties, self-managing, doing even most of the maintenance myself, even though I'm not usually inclined to do those type of things... And I built up a small property management company over the next three years. I grew to 24 units; along the way got my broker's license. I reached a point where it was a tipping point, and I think I needed to expand and get a little bit of help. So my brother came on and partnered with me in 2018. Since then, we've quadrupled the size of our portfolio, we've built out an actual property management team. We're doing development projects, redeveloping existing multifamily properties, and short term rentals, like you mentioned.
Ash Patel: That's a lot.
Brian Green: Yeah...
Ash Patel: So let's rewind - the Verizon Wireless stores.... Were you the owner operator of those stores?
Brian Green: I was. So they are similar to a franchisee model, but not legally a franchisee. So we had a working relationship with Verizon, and they would approve new locations, and help us with the funding, but it was basically our own business, our own staff, and then we were expanding into various locations across the Northeast.
Ash Patel: Did you lease all of those locations?
Brian Green: I did, yes. Maybe one of your questions later on will be one of my biggest regrets, or if wish I could go back... But we did we lease all of those properties.
Ash Patel: So you saw landlords receiving your checks every month? Did it ever occur to you, "This guy is making money. I'm doing all the work, I'm running a business, and he's just collecting a check."
Brian Green: I wish it had, because then maybe I would have started buying some of the buildings we were releasing out... But at the time, I was so focused on the operations of the wireless stores; it has so many moving parts, and there's a lot of inventory... It just wasn't even in the prism of my thinking at the time. So regrettably, I did not focus on that part of the business.
Ash Patel: Well, I don't know that that's the right answer, right? You'll find most business owners - and you know this - they focus on their business, not real estate. And often, their capital is better served in their business than it is in real estate... So I'm not faulting you, by any means; I want to point out though, it's an opportunity, because a lot of business owners are so focused on their business, they don't have time to think about real estate plays.
So if I could have partnered with somebody like you in the past... Brian, let's go find some more locations that I can lease to you, right? So yeah, it's a great experience, and you've got that perspective of seeing things from the landlord and the tenant side now. What was your first entrance into multifamily?
Brian Green: So about three months after I sold my company, I bought my first four-unit building. I did not exactly know what I was doing; I paid all cash for the building. I started doing maintenance myself, painting walls, and mowing the lawn... And I even at some point went out and bought a snowplow for my truck... This was my idea of what a landlord was; you had to take care of all this stuff, and this is what you were supposed to do... But I knew from my business background and my education in finance and business that it made sense. The math of real estate made sense, I just wasn't really sure how to enter it. So this is the way I decided to do it. I had money from the sale of the company, and I started running numbers, and this one worked, so I said, "Let's just jump in, and figure out the rest while we get in there."
Ash Patel: After you had the first property, did then something click, and you're like, "This is cool, let's do more"?
Brian Green: I think it was the first couple of rent checks. Once I started seeing the rent come in, and that exceeding the mortgage payment that I had on the property... But back then I wasn't even figuring in a budget for CapEx or any of that stuff, but the simple math of seeing the checks come in, versus how much I knew the building cost me, and what the financing expense was - as soon as that started happening, I was like, "Okay, I have to figure this out."
Ash Patel: And starting a property management company - that's the most dreaded thing for most real estate investors, but you're drawn to that. Explain that to me, please.
Brian Green: Well, my background is in basically operations. We have retail stores, it's a lot of moving parts... Like I mentioned, inventory, it's staffing levels, it's customer service... My background was in building businesses, so when I got into real estate and I realized that you actually need to run this like a business, I said, "Okay, I know how to do this. We'll just start building it out." And at first, it was just me doing all the work, and then over time, I hired on an assistant to do showings at the apartments, because that was my least favorite part of the job, doing showings of the apartments... So over time, I brought her on to do that, and then I started outsourcing more and more, like the maintenance etc. And then eventually, we just had this network of people that was kind of our property management company, even though everyone was basically independent contractors. And now that's evolved over time to some of those people being elevated into actual employee roles, and that was kind of the foundation for the company. But without that initial movement and me doing it all myself, I never would have been able to figure out all the moving parts, and figured out what people I needed in what seats to build the company.
Ash Patel: Brian, back to the your evolution, the four unit - how many more units did you acquire before starting the PM company?
Brian Green: It depends on your definition of the PM company, because at some point it was just me, then it was me and an assistant, and then it was me and a couple of assistants... So I think that by the time I got to 24 units, which was across six properties, all within basically the same county, so their geographic proximity was pretty close, I realized that I need to get much bigger, I want to get much bigger, I want to grow this, so I need to start putting people in place. So we kind of built it out before I needed it, if that makes sense, and then we kind of just filled in the gaps as we went along.
Ash Patel: Do you manage properties for others?
Brian Green: We do not. We self managed, and we have explored that opportunity, although most people I talked to that are in that business tell me to run whenever I kind of bring up third party management. We have to come to the internal realization that we will do it as long as we are an equity partner in the property. So we're going to use this as a partnership opportunity with other like-minded investors that might not have the management capacity, and we feel like we can bring a lot of value to the table if we partner in that way. So we're kind of doing third party management at that point, but mostly in an ownership position at some level.
Ash Patel: Got it. And then you started getting into development and redevelopment. How did that come about?
Brian Green: Well, I used to just call it value-add. That's what everyone says, right? Value-add investing. But at some point, I realized my value-add investing was not the same as just painting and changing out counters, like a lot of other people were doing, or putting [unintelligible 00:08:49.04] flooring.
I'd say from the third property on, I was spending as much on renovations as I was on acquisition of the property. So in some cases, we were spending 40k and 50k per unit in apartment renovations. So at that point, it's basically redevelopment, right? You're taking a property from one use and completely changing the profile of it. So I've done that ever since, because the math just works better when you can reposition a property and, say, change the rents from $700 to $1,400. It's a whole different demographic of tenant. But to push the value that far - that's kind of what made it worth our time. So that's how we kind of fell into the redevelopment space.
Ash Patel: That's a significant cost for per-unit development. Are you turning class C's into class B's or A's?
Brian Green: I would say more like maybe a C+ into an A-, in some cases. It varies depending on the exact property and location. I'll give you an example - we bought a 20-unit building three years ago for 1.265, and we ended up spending another $1.1 million on renovations, so about 50k, 55k per unit. And when we were finished, the property appraised for 3.5 million, and we moved those rents from around $750 to today, the top end of those rents is just under $1,500. It's almost double in three years. So that's a significant number. We basically rebuilt all the buildings, everything from top to bottom.
Ash Patel: Are these gut renovations down to the studs?
Brian Green: Usually, I would say almost like. We'll save the drywall if we can, in a lot of cases. We try not to move walls if we don't have to, because then you're opening up permitting issues, and we have to bring engineers in, and stuff like that... So if we don't have to, we'll just change everything in and around the shell. But yeah, you do get into some cases where you have to tear down walls, you have to re-drywall entire buildings. I think it just varies based on the project.
Ash Patel: You're make me nervous... [laughter] So how do you get funding? Is that from a lender, a $1.1 million renovation on a $1.2 million purchase?
Brian Green: Yeah, we have really good relationship with a couple of local banks, especially our local credit union. So they do construction loans on the frontend for us. So they'll do an appraisal on the as-is value, and then based on our proforma of where we're going to take it. And at this point, we have a track record of repositioning these buildings. And we're using realistic expectations. Even our final product is still just above average for rents in our market. So appraisers have no problem; they can kind of see the vision, we outline a construction budget... So during the time of redevelopment, we're paying interest-only on the construction draw schedule, and then when we're finished, the loan matures into a long-term mortgage, and it converts on some percentage of the future value.
Ash Patel: With this level of renovations, do you wait for tenants to leave? Or do you do it unit by unit?
Brian Green: It's also a difficult question to answer. It varies on the property. In certain circumstances - I can think of a handful of buildings that we've done, we've taken the occupancy all the way down to zero within the first 90 days of buying the property. We do that because the renovations necessarily are so extensive, and we can get through them so much faster when the buildings are unoccupied. And the reality is, when we're finished renovating, it's not the same tenant profile anyway. So to try to keep people on board throughout that process - we're kind of just delaying the inevitable. So we do go that route a lot of times, and we try to assist in any way we can by being flexible when it's possible on how quickly they can move out. We also pay them relocation money and help them move... But the reality is these are properties that have not been attended to in decades, so there's so much deferred maintenance that it just has to be done at some point, and done right.
Ash Patel: Brian, are these all in upstate New York?
Brian Green: They are. We currently focus just on two counties - Saratoga and Warren counties. We've recently expanded out to encircle the greater Albany area as well... But since we're doing self management, we like to keep it fairly geographically close in proximity, just so we're not spread out too thin.
Ash Patel: Tell me if my assumption is correct - for your model to work, you have to find a neglected asset in an area that's essentially booming, for you to put that kind of CapEx into it. Is that right?
Brian Green: That is correct, in a lot of cases. And we happen to be in the one county in upstate New York, outside of the world that is New York City, that is growing year over year. So the population in our county has gone up, I want to say 12% in the last decade. So we're really close to the State Capitol, there's lots of private industry here - healthcare, five colleges... This is like the one spot in upstate New York that is booming.
Ash Patel: Alright. Because I grew up in Jersey, and I never thought of upstate New York as booming. What is it that's causing the population growth?
Brian Green: So like I mentioned, we have state government... So that is very sticky. That's a population of employees that are very stable. There's five colleges and universities within a 30-minute radius to us; that brings in a lot of employment opportunities as well. Saratoga has the oldest horse racing track in the country, so in the summer we have a racing season where all the horses from the Kentucky Derby come up and race all summer long here. So the population of the area quadruples in the summer, and we get a ton of tourists into town. And then we have private industry. So Global Foundries, one of the biggest chip manufacturers in the world - they have a $4 billion factory that's 10 minutes from [unintelligible 00:14:08.06] and they're adding another 6 billion to that in the next five years. So they're expanding. That's their biggest manufacturing plant in the world. That's 10 minutes from us.
Ash Patel: So growing population - do you know much about the demographics, the age of the population? Are they getting older? Are younger people coming into the area?
Brian Green: They are, because of the colleges and universities. There's a lot of people for school here, and then they stay afterwards, because they like the area. So we do have a good mix. We have a relatively high median income; the median income for our county is $85,000 a year. So we're culturally and geographically much more like the New England areas, I think (Connecticut, Massachusetts) than we are the rest of upstate New York... But it's a great place to be. We very much enjoy living here and working here. Much more so in the summer maybe than the winter, but every place has its pros and cons.
Ash Patel: Yeah, and I'm assuming it's under the radar, not a lot of people are investing there.
Brian Green: If you expand it out to the entire Albany MSA, there's far more investment than just in our one county area that we've tried to focus on, or two counties. The MSA is actually top 50 in the country; it's about 1.1 million people. So it's fairly large, but most people would not target this market, I think a lot of times just from perception, right? They're perceiving New York as everyone's leaving New York, they're perceiving the cold weather... Northeast is not trending to invest in; everyone wants to be in the Southeast or the Southwest. So that's perfectly fine with us. That just means there's less competition, and we can kind of settle down and capitalize.
Ash Patel: I applaud you, because I love those markets that have never boomed. They steadily go up, and in the bust times they don't collapse; Phoenix, Miami, those areas that have monumental rises - you're not going to experience those collapses that they've historically experienced. So I love markets like that.
You take on investors for your properties... How do you convince them to put money into a place that just needs a tremendous amount of renovations?
Brian Green: I think its track record; I think it's also us as the sponsors or the general partners. I think that people invest in people. You have to have a certain amount of credibility when you go out and try to raise capital. To this point, we've mostly done debt funding from private investors. We'll just do notes that we use as part of the construction funding, and then we repay them upon execution of the projects and that stabilization, and they get a coupon return basically a 10% return. We are moving in the other direction though now; we're in the middle of getting a major development approved for our scale. It'll be a 13 million plus project. So we are moving towards the syndication model, where we have to start raising actual equity.
Ash Patel: Are those debt payments made monthly or quarterly?
Brian Green: Actually, given the nature of the projects, we actually accrue all the interest and pay them out in a lump sum when we close up the note.
Ash Patel: Got it. What's the investor profile that wants to put money in today, and is okay with not getting money until the very end? What's the typical type of person or occupation?
Brian Green: I think it skews older; it's people that want safe investments. They're basically buying a note, or a coupon, and they're trusting me and our team to execute and pay them back. So I would say it's 50+ demographic, maybe even slightly older, cash on hand. They're not real estate industry day to day, so like their limited options are normally stocks, bonds, bank accounts, that kind of thing. So when you give them a platform where they can make a 10% return, that's fantastic to most people, and it should be. That's a really solid return.
Ash Patel: Thank you for that... Because I don't think a lot of people understand that that profile of investor is out there. Giving them a monthly or quarterly check is really just an accounting headache for them. They don't need the money. They want to grow their money consistently, but they don't need to live on the monthly or quarterly returns. So it's great that you've tapped into that investor profile. But now going forward, what will your syndication model look like?
Brian Green: I've talked to a lot of people on this; I've kind of been building up to this for a number of years. I wanted to get to a point where I was extremely comfortable taking on people's money as being partners with them, because this is going to be a long-term type investing. So our model is going to be more geared towards long-term wealth. So we're in development, and we spend a lot of time and effort and a lot of money, ours and theirs, in building these projects. So our model is going to be something where we can capture enough value in the first three to five years where we can return all or most of investors' capital, weaving them in the project long term, at basically infinite returns. And with my company managing it, I think we can have complete control over the asset and maximize that appreciation and cashflow.
So our goal is to get people that wants to invest and build wealth. This is not transactional. We're not planning a five year sale, or three year flip after we do a cosmetic renovation. We're going building assets that are going to last forever, and we want to manage them forever. And that doesn't mean we won't sell them in the future, but we're not going into it planning to sell. So we need investors that want that same long-term perspective.
Ash Patel: You had me sold at infinite returns... What a great phrase. With these investors, my guess is they won't see much of their capital back until you're ready for the refi.
Brian Green: That's normally correct. The project we're working on now, it's only in the approval phases, but this one will have a condo element to it as well. There's a lot of moving pieces, but the land that we're under contract to purchase has old historic buildings on them, that we are going to renovate and sell them off as condos to recapitalize the project, for a couple of reasons. One, we can make a little bit of money doing so. Two, the project might not get approved if we don't save these old buildings, because the city's got an appetite to save the properties... Which is fine with us. So [unintelligible 00:20:52.03] repayment to investors will be the sale of those condos within the first couple of years, and then once the apartment part of the project is stabilized, we'll be refinancing those with agency debt, and then returning the rest of the capital.
Ash Patel: We have to dive into this deal. Paint the picture for me - what are we buying here? $13 million, right?
Brian Green: Okay, so yeah, that's the total construction costs, including the land. We're buying a two and a half acre parcel that has eight apartments on it right now, that are basically old Victorian houses. So the houses are 120-140 years old. It's in the center of the parcel, which is not ideal for us in our development project. So we're actually going to pick up the property, the house and the carriage house, and relocate it on the lot more forward towards the street, and then we're going to renovate them inside and out; the outside will be historically renovated, the inside will be more modern condos, and it'll be a subdivision; so those will be sectioned off into their own parcel to be sold off into an HOA. So we're not going to hold those.
And then the backside of the parcel will be two acres, where we're going to construct 36 new apartments, and those apartments will be market rate apartments, although we try to price them at kind of the B plus, A minus level, and then we're gonna hold those long-term.
Ash Patel: How many stories are the 36 apartments?
Brian Green: Three stories.
Ash Patel: I'm assuming this is in a suburban downtown?
Brian Green: Pretty much... This is less than a mile from our downtown in Saratoga, so it'll be walking distance in the town.
Ash Patel: Got it. And three to five years for the total project?
Brian Green: I'm hoping that all the construction and the lease out will be done within three years. That's from the time we actually put a shovel in the ground to then. Right now, like I said, we're still working through approvals. But if we start construction sometime over this summer, we expect everything to be done and refinanced out within three years.
Ash Patel: Was this parcel for sale, or did you put it together?
Brian Green: No, it was for sale, and it had gone on and off the market a couple of times. Based on my explanation of the project, you can see why most developers would not be running towards this... But maybe that's why I think we're going to do really well on it - because it's difficult, not a lot of people will do it, or put the time in to execute on this plan. For me, it's always math; it's "Do the numbers work? Is there a way to do this?"
First, we were going to tear the old houses down; then we started getting pushed back, and I said "Alright, well, what does this look like if we just moved them?" And everyone looked at me like I was crazy. I'm like, "I don't know, I've seen it before you can move buildings." And then when we did it, the cost to move is about the same as is to demo it, so it doesn't really make a difference. And if we can save it and capitalize on that part of the project, then it makes sense.
Ash Patel: Is it 20k, 25k to move?
Brian Green: [laughs] Times four.
Ash Patel: Oh...
Brian Green: It's about 100k. But these are big buildings. It's a 4000 square foot house and another 2000 square foot carriage house. We're gonna move it.
Ash Patel: Got it. Yeah. Okay. And I'm assuming this city - you've worked closely with them. How far along are you in that process?
Brian Green: Well, it's complicated. Our planning process here takes quite some time. We have informal conversations leading up to actual planning board meetings. So our first official planning board meeting only recently happened within the last 30 days. But at that point, everyone's already seen our concept plans, and we've done tons of legwork already on our end. We've already worked with the local Preservation Society. So we're not going into this from scratch. So it'll probably take another two to three meetings with them through the spring before we get site plan approval, and then we'll move on to permitting and get going.
Ash Patel: Brian, you have to win the locals hearts and minds on this deal. Are you on social media, squelching some of the rumors, and presenting your plan a little bit?
Brian Green: We are on social media, but this has not been a highly publicized plan yet, because - maybe it's a weakness, or maybe it's a strength, but our company doesn't really seek out PR on any of these issues. So until it hits the planning board, and maybe a local writer picks it up, nobody really knows about it. But we have been proactive for the last 90 days, and talking with constituents like the Preservation Society in our town, and trying to work with them on a plan that works for everyone. So we're trying to get in front of that and make it a partnership amongst everyone, to have a successful project, so that we stem off any of those issues before they occur.
Ash Patel: That's good. Because you know how the neighborhood starts talking... The rumors start coming out, and I can imagine what the town's gonna say. So it's important getting in front of that, right? Those neighborhood pages on Facebook especially - it's where a lot of rumors fly... And really, taking control of that is very important. So this is exciting, good for you.
Brian Green: Thank you.
Ash Patel: While you're doing this, are you continuing to look for other projects?
Brian Green: We are. We are still actively redeveloping a couple other projects right now. A 19 unit building in town, and another 20 unit property outside of town. And we're actively looking to buy more. We want to kind of do this two tiered approach as we move forward, where we're buying redevelopment properties, somewhere in the range of 35 to 75 units a year, and also getting a new development under contract every single year as well. So in doing so, we can kind of stack them on top of each other for the next decade, and kind of get to where our goals are as a company. And also utilize both our expertise in the development space, as well as we have contractors on staff that work pretty much solely for us doing renovations. So we kind of have two arms of the company, and we keep all of them busy if we go forward with that plan.
Ash Patel: What's the dollar amount of the raise for this $13 million project?
Brian Green: It'll be just under 2.5 million.
Ash Patel: That seems very low. Is the rest coming by way of lenders?
Brian Green: They have -- we're getting credited for our GP equity in the form of development fee. So that counts towards the equity in the project as well. But the numbers [unintelligible 00:26:18.03] loans to cost normally around 80% on these construction deals, of the purchase and of the renovation.
Ash Patel: That's incredible. This will be a great deal. How do investors reach out to you, or how do you attract investors?
Brian Green: A lot of it has been friends and family to this point, and then referrals. So they can reach out to us on our website, at GreenSpringscapitalgroup.com. They can find us on Instagram @GreenSpringscapital. Or they can just give me an email. I'm kind of old school and I use email for everything still. So Brian [at] GreenSpringsCapitalGroup. But it's kind of one of those things I've been starting for years and months, trying to build up a list, getting ready for this coming moment.
Ash Patel: Good. Brian, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Brian Green: I would say that when you first get started, you need to make a decision really quickly. Are you going to be an owner-operator and build out a management company? Or are you going to use third party management? I think a lot of people get stuck, where they try to do it themselves, but then they're not treating it like a business, and they get frustrated, and it doesn't work, and they start losing money. In reality, if they had just decided "I'm going to start a business, or I'm not", at the beginning, I think a lot of those issues would have been resolved much earlier on.
Ash Patel: You'll save people from buying a snowplow. I can't tell you how many times I've spoken to people that I've talked them off the ledge from buying an F150 with a snow plow. And listen, I wanted to do it too, right? It's a good excuse to go buy a truck. But as we get more experienced, we learn it might not be the best use of time and resources... Unless you're going to start a PM company.
Brian Green: Yeah, I agree completely.
Ash Patel: Brian, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Brian Green: I am.
Ash Patel: Alright, what is the Best Ever book you've recently read?
Brian Green: I've recently read Multifamily Millionaire, and this is the volume two written by Brian Murray. I think it's published by Bigger Pockets. I've read a number of real estate books, and most of them get kind of repetitive over time. But for some reason, this book - Brian's got some good examples in there, that are really tactical. And I'll give you an example... He talks about charging rents two times a month, instead of once a month. So you're basically spreading out monthly payments, but you're gonna charge them basically over the course of 26 periods, which if you do the math, equates to like a seven and a half percent increase in NOI, if you converted your tenants to that... And it sounds so simple, but then I read through it and I'm like, "Oh my God, that math works perfectly right." So then we started offering it as an option to our tenants. So if they have problems with cash flow crunches, they do this now, and we actually ended up making a little bit more for giving them the flexibility. So that book was fantastic.
Ash Patel: What percentage of your tenants take advantage of that?
Brian Green: It's only a few and far between at this point, but part of that is our learning curve on how to expense it and keep track of the books... But I'm hoping in the future that we can get a significant percentage that would do so, and then we kind of capitalize on it.
Ash Patel: Interesting. Brian, what's the Best Ever way you like to give back?
Brian Green: My family has over the years started giving more and more money away to local charities. So the intent is to start a Green Family Foundation at some point here, once we get to a sizable scale, with my wife and I running it... But we give to a number of local charities, we've gotten our kids involved, so they get to save money as part of their allowance throughout the year, and then we match whatever they've saved with $1,000 of our own, and they get to pick which charity it goes to, which is kind of cool. We did that this year. But I very much like giving back to our local organizations and communities, so we hope to grow that as we move forward.
Ash Patel: And Brian, one more time, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Brian Green: Sure. Our website is GreenSpringsCapitalGroup.com. I can be reached at Brian [at] GreenSpringsCapitalGroup.com. And they can follow us on Instagram @GreenSpringsCapital, and I appreciate your time, Ash. Thanks for having me on.
Ash Patel: Brian, thank you for sharing your story. You came from a successful business owner, growing out the Verizon Wireless stores, and quickly pivoting into multifamily, not exactly knowing what direction you were going to go to, but obviously becoming a very successful developer/redeveloper. Some incredible projects that you've done, an incredible deal that's in front of you... I want you to come back as you hit some milestones on that $13 million development deal.
Brian Green: Absolutely. I'd love to be back.
Ash Patel: Awesome. Thank you again for your time. Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review. Share this podcast with someone you think can benefit from it. Also, follow, subscribe, and have a Best Ever day.
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