May 25, 2022

JF2822: From the Market Crash to $350M AUM ft. Robert Ritzenthaler

Robert Ritzenthaler grew up around his father’s construction business before earning his finance degree, which kickstarted his career on Wall Street. After the market crash of 2000, however, Robert reconsidered his path and decided to join his friend’s growing real estate business. Today, he is CEO and founder of REM Capital, with $350M AUM across eight states and a total door count of over 3,400. In this episode, Robert discusses how the current interest rate climate is affecting his investing decisions, the advantages of bridge debt, and the hardest lesson he’s learned so far. 


1. How Current Interest Rates Are Impacting His Investing Decisions

Robert says that if you’ve been underwriting to more of a market growth rate over the past couple of years, your underwriting will need to change very quickly to adjust to the new interest rate environment. However, if you’ve been underwriting a 10- to 20-year average, your hold period is longer and your structure is more stable.

“The big question is … do you stick with long-term debt, or do you look at more of a bridge option?” Robert says. Many investors are now wondering about the risk and reward of long-term fixed debt versus bridge debt. 


2. The Advantages of Bridge Debt

Robert says that if you give up a point or two to get a 10-year agency loan, but you take a bridge debt with a floater that you can cap, then even though you are getting a shorter term, there is value in saving that point or two. “And I think that’s something that we’re always looking at from a debt structuring standpoint,” Robert says. “What’s our risk/return, and how does that affect the deal?”

He gives an example: 10-year agency loan debt is currently 4.5% to 5%, while bridge debt is anywhere from 3.1% to 3.6%. “Now granted, it’s a floater, but you can come in with a cap, you can lock in your risk so you’re not really floating for good,” Robert explains. If your float goes up to 5%, you can come back and refinance in five years when you expect rates to be lower without being locked in at 5%. 


3. Know Your Partners

Robert says the biggest mistake he’s made in his real estate career is not being careful enough when it comes to picking partners. He’s currently the managing partner of all of his deals but has shared partnership responsibilities in the past. “I’ve had some really great partners, but all it takes is one, and that challenges your deal,” he says. Now he strives to work with people who align with what he’s doing, put others first, and focus on making sure that the deal gets done correctly. 


Robert Ritzenthaler | Real Estate Background

  • CEO and founder of REM Capital, a real estate investment company that focuses on value-add and new development opportunities in key markets within the U.S.
  • Portfolio: $350M AUM across eight states with a total door count of over 3,400
  • Based in: Bradenton, FL
  • Say hi to him at:
  • Best Ever Book: Leadership in Turbulent Times by Doris Kearns Goodwin
  • Greatest lesson: A conservative, long-term approach keeps you out of trouble. My experience on Wall Street and managing a hedge fund afforded me a valuable lesson on the power and risks of leverage. On the same note, I grew up in a construction family where my father was one of the few builders to make it through tough times, mainly because he was not over leveraged.



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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I'm Slocomb Reed and I'm here with Robert Ritzenthaler. Robert’s joining us from Bradenton, Florida. He's the CEO and founder of REM Capital, which focuses on value-add and new development, multifamily opportunities in markets across the United States. Current portfolio of around $350 million assets under management across eight states, with a total door count of over 3,400. Robert, can you tell us a little more about your background and what you're currently focused on?

Robert Ritzenthaler: You bet, and appreciate you having me on, excited to be here. And thanks for the intro, that sounds more impressive than it is...

Slocomb Reed: They're good numbers, for sure. They podcast well.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Right, exactly. Yes. Just a little background about myself... I actually, ironically enough, grew up in the construction business. My dad was a home builder, so I had real estate in my blood from the beginning. And the irony, of course, is that I thought I was going to take over his business until he said, “No way, this is a terrible business. Do something else.” So I went off, got my finance degree -- I actually started off in engineering, then went finance, and then did that for a couple of years in New York on Wall Street, and then the market crash of 2000 which we all probably remember, it wasn't too long ago... Then I had a buddy of mine reach out to me and said, “Hey, come on over here, help us out. We've got a growing real estate business.” It was a perfect fit, from a construction background to finance, and the rest is history at that point. Just been on the corporate side for the better part of 20 years. About four years ago, I decided it was time to hang a shingle and go to town.

Slocomb Reed: Nice. You had some experience on Wall Street in hedge fund management?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Yup. I worked for a large company, CIBC. I worked with one of their hedge funds, asset management division, and then left, started my own. Again, that was back in the day when you could pretty much print money if you knew what you were doing, even though it was...

Slocomb Reed: That was pre-2000, you said?

Robert Ritzenthaler: That was pre-2000, yeah.

Slocomb Reed: That was like dot-com bubble.

Robert Ritzenthaler: That was major dot-com bubble, yes. Exactly. My specialty was pre-IPO shares of technology companies. I was the bubble of the bubble.

Slocomb Reed: Yeah, wow. Let's actually dive into that, because I have from you in our pre-show notes that you put an emphasis, which you learned from your father in his construction business, on the risk involved in leverage, and making sure that you have a conservative long-term approach. You just intro-ed yourself as the bubble of the bubble of the dot-com bubble. Let's dive into that, but let's keep it to your multifamily holdings now. First of all, with REM Capital, $350 million AUM - what is your role in that? Are you a member of the GP? Are you the whole GP?

Robert Ritzenthaler: So I've got a couple of partners and I'm the managing partner. The beginning is, when you first start, you do a little bit of everything, and then as you begin to grow, you can bring people on and get some help, which is great. We're actually in the process right now of building out the leadership team, which is awesome. I just had an interview with a guy that we'll probably bring on as an asset manager. We're building that team out so that it's not all on my shoulders because it's way past me being able to do it. But at the end of the day, I'm the operator, the investor, the GP, the managing partner; you name it, we get it done, which is great. No complaints there.

But going back to what you said about the leverage thing, I think one of the things that you realize is just because somebody says something and just because you see it growing up doesn't necessarily mean that it sinks in. I think, for me, going off to Wall Street, making big bucks, thinking I was all that hotshot, whatever - sometimes you have to learn the hard way. I think it wasn't until after the market crash that I was able to look back and realize, “You know, my dad was pretty smart and maybe I should follow that model.” Of course, that's what I brought forward today.

The other thing too, when you're 25 years old, let's be honest, you don't know as much. Even though we think we do, but we don't know as much as when we're 45. And that's played into a huge role in where I am today. I was single, I had no responsibilities, now I've got a family. It's a whole different ballgame. It's a good thing. It's all good.

Slocomb Reed: Robert, we're recording at the end of April 2022. 2022 has been a heck of a year for interest rates, for a variety of factors, and April's been a month. We have a very sophisticated audience, Robert, for the Best Ever podcast, so let's take a step beyond the generic value of long-term debt, because that's something that this audience is already aware of. Let me ask you though how the current interest rate climate is impacting your investing decisions?

Robert Ritzenthaler: That's a great question, and it's a question that I get a lot actually, too. The key here is, if you have been underwriting to more of a market growth rate over the past couple of years, I think your underwriting has to change very quickly, because you're going to be adjusting to the new interest rate environment. If you've been underwriting to a call at a 10, 20-year average, then your underwriting doesn't change as much, because your whole period is typically longer, your structure is more stable, that kind of thing. There are two boats here that I often have to nuance the answer to. Either way, I think the underwriting changes. The big question is, to your point, do you stick with long-term debt or do you look at more of a bridge option? And that's the big question that I find happening more often, is “What's the risk-reward on long-term fixed debt versus bridge?”

A year ago, agencies were much more competitive than they are today because of the industry environment. So you've got to ask yourself, “If I'm giving up a point, point and a half, maybe two points in some cases, to get an agency loan that's 10 years out, but I'm taking a bridge debt that's got a floater that I can cap... Yes, I'm getting a shorter term, but if I'm saving a point or two, there's value there.” I think that's something that we're always looking at from a debt structuring standpoint, is “What's our risk-return and how does it affect the deal?”

Slocomb Reed: Robert, explain how choosing bridge debt now would save you points of interest.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Sure. As an example, right now, tenure debt is 4.5% to 5% if you go and get an agency loan right now. Our bridge debt right now is anywhere from 3.10 to 3.60. So point and a half, maybe two points, it's a pretty big spread. Granted, it's a floater, but you can come in with a cap, you can lock in your risk there, so you're not really floating for good. The thought is if your float goes up to 5%, and we all think it's probably going to come back down at some point; I shouldn't say we all think, but I think it will, then thought as well, “I'm saving every dollar below 5% I'm saving, and I can come back and refinance in five years when I expect the rates to be lower, and I'm not locked in at 5%.” It's not always the case, obviously, but in the current environment, that's how we look at it for what the deals we're looking at.

Slocomb Reed: What you're taking on is, I guess, the risk that five years from now we're worse off when it comes to the debt picture.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Exactly. That's really the risk, is that if rates go from 3% to 5% to 7%, and in five years, you're in a really bad environment, then we got a problem. I don't think that's going to happen. In fact, I really believe that... You saw the GP numbers come out for the first quarter - we contracted 1.4%. I've been saying this for a while, I think the economy is much weaker than we're expecting. I think the Fed knows it, but there's a little bit of politics involved here. So they've got to keep the demographic happy, if you will, but the economy really isn't that strong. We've got a supply-side issue as much as anything else. And you push the rates too far, we're going to be in a recessionary environment pretty quickly, and then the rates are going to have to come back down. Again, everybody's got their different perspective on it, but that's what I'm seeing.

Really, the biggest thing that we're starting to track - not starting to track, we're really looking at more in-depth, is the income level of our residents on a property-by-property basis. What I want to do is get ahead of the curve, so that if we start to see income growth slow, we're going to know ahead of time that, “Hey, by the way, incomes are growing 10%. Rents can't grow 20%." We've got to have this reconciliation at some point. That's what we're looking at as one of our barometers out ahead of the curve and preparation for what may happen on the job front.

Slocomb Reed: Totally. Robert, you said this is a consideration that you guys are making, whether or not you go bridge debt or go for the longer tenure term agency debt now that may be a little more expensive. What are you deciding? What is it that you're putting into practice?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Most... I don't know if I'd say most, but I'd say probably half of our deals we're choosing the bridge option right now because we think it gives us more flexibility, it definitely gives us some downside on the cost of our debt, and it gives us the ability to be flexible going forward with what we're anticipating to be a short-term increase, and then a leveling out. Maybe not back to zero like it is today, but it certainly won't stay up there based on the economic data that we're seeing. We'll see. At the end of the day, we all make decisions based on what we think is out there, and that's how we're seeing it today.

Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. Do you have an example of a time where you had to choose between these two options recently, and what you chose?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Yeah, we are actually working on a project right now where we've got both options on the table. That's exactly the math that I related a second ago, is that we're looking at an agency product that's in the high fours, low fives, versus a bridge product that's in the low threes. So it's almost a two-point spread, and the leverage is about the same. Leverage is actually a little bit better, but even if you take it to the same leverage point, it's like a point and a half to two points. It's a pretty big difference. The caps are expensive, we all know that. They've gone up 10, 20 times what they were a year ago, but even after you factor that in, you've got some pretty big fudge factor there. If you're getting a two or three-year cap, you've got some room in there to move. Again, we all take risks but that's what we're looking at right now. We'd rather take that risk and give ourselves the upside on the back-end versus locking it in at five.

Slocomb Reed: To be specific, you're going to go with the bridge debt?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Yes, on the most recent one that we're doing. Correct.

Slocomb Reed: And that is because the savings of the point and a half or two on the interest rate for the next five years, the savings there outweigh the way that you calculate the risk of what interest rates are five years from now.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Correct. Exactly.

Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. Cool.

Break: [00:12:18] – [00:14:05]

Slocomb Reed: Robert, I want to take this conversation in a bit of a different direction and hijack the podcast again for my own needs and just bring the Best Ever listeners along. Robert, this is the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show, so I'm asking for advice. I am an apartment owner-operator in Cincinnati, Ohio. I understand from our pre-show conversation that you have some assets in Cincinnati, so you're fairly familiar. I'm not interested in diving into the nitty-gritty of the Cincinnati market, unless that's where this conversation heads. I have another thought here. This is actually happening in my portfolio. I'll keep it surface level to be relatable, but I have some C-class assets and some A-class assets based on location, not property type. My A-class stuff was built in the 1800s. If you're familiar with Cincinnati, Robert, then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. The really trendy downtown is all really old construction, with very updated mechanicals.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Right.

Slocomb Reed: I am at a position now where my entire portfolio has long-term fixed debt in the threes, except for one of my buildings that I got into the twos, and I've got one at 4%, 15-15. It's a college fund property; [unintelligible 00:15:19.01] She graduates from high school, it's paid off. I'm in a position where with my A-class properties, my cosmetic finishes and my rents have fallen well behind the market, if I'm being honest, because we've seen a lot of gentrification. And other similar apartments in the same area, on the same street, on the same block, are able to command higher rents, with nicer finishes. My capital is limited, Robert. The generic question here is, I think my debt and the current debt picture plays a role in this. Should I take my limited capital and spend it improving on the great location properties that I already have, to command market rents or even possibly do a moderate renovation and then furnish and go short-term rental or mid-term rental, because of the walkability, the desirability of the location? Or do I take that capital and put it in an acquisition, buy something new? Generally speaking, between those two options, any follow-up questions you need to ask, feel free, Robert, but what are you feeling here? What do you recommend?

Robert Ritzenthaler: I’d like to shout out to the Queen City, first of all.

Slocomb Reed: Absolutely.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Don't tell anybody that. That's actually really cool. I think that's a great scenario. I'm assuming you don't have a million dollars to just write checks and do CapEx. That's out of the question, right?

Slocomb Reed: Yes. Not that many digits, no.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Right. I guess the way I look at it is twofold. One, if you have another opportunity where you think you could generate a better return, that might be the direction that I would go. However, your pre-pay on your existing loan probably comes into play more than anything else. I'll just give you an example for us. We've got an asset in Dallas right now. We've owned it for a few years, long-term debt, lots of offers coming in, and the way I pretty much present it is, “Guys, if you're willing to give me an offer at market rate and you're okay picking up the pre-pay, we might have a deal. But if you're not willing to pick up the pre-pay and the pre-pay is $5 million, it probably it doesn't make sense. I can hang on to the asset, it's going to continue to appreciate."

Slocomb Reed: Sure.

Robert Ritzenthaler: That's some of the analysis that we'll do in our own portfolio, to your point, where I'll have to look at what's the value that I could get if I sell it, then I take that money and I roll it over. If that rollover return is higher than what I could do with the existing asset, keeping where it is, reinvesting in it, then it probably makes sense to do that. I'm assuming you can do a 1031, because obviously, the tax consequences also come into play.

Slocomb Reed: Of course.

Robert Ritzenthaler: That's how I would look at it. And I would say that it's not always a clear answer until you really dig into the details, because there are things like management. If you're really good at management, you may say, “Absolutely, I know we can do this.” Or maybe you're good at construction, you're like, “You know what? I can do half the construction myself.” Well, now all of a sudden, that equation changes. Back in the day, I did half the stuff myself and probably added millions of dollars’ worth of value without even realizing it. But at the end of the day, you're getting an ROI on that value, and that's something to take into consideration. I think, from a management perspective and an ownership perspective, I always like to look at both of those.

And then you mentioned the short-term rental question. Man, I've heard of some people that have gone out there, converted their long-term into short-term, and the numbers they're spitting off are unbelievable. If you're downtown, high walkability score, and you can put some money in and crank out a great return, that's a real option. A 200-unit, trying to convert that, not really possible. But if you've got a small two, three, four-unit, even a single unit like that, I think it's a legitimate option. Especially with where things are going, with remote work and people traveling. And Cincinnati is a great city, a lot of people fly in and out, you know that. I don't know. I would look at those numbers too, because it's crazy. It's good.

Slocomb Reed: Let's start a hopeful comment firestorm here. Let me give you some more numbers here. Because the question is, let's say it's a hypothetical $100,000, and I can spend that $100,000 putting top-of-the-line A-class cosmetic finishes in seven apartments downtown, within two or three blocks of Washington Park, in Over-the-Rhine since you know Cincinnati. $100,000, seven units, that won't furnish them. Short-term rental, medium-term rental, it will require an additional capital investment. Or that $100,000 could be the down payment on the acquisition of a new four to six-unit building in a similar neighborhood, that probably needs a little bit of work. What do I do? Do I renovate my units? I'm not looking at all the numbers right now. For $100,000, I could increase my rents by $25,000 a year, or I could buy another property.

Saying these things out loud, Robert, I don't think I'll get $25,000 a year in cash flow at 25% returns spending my $100,000 on a new building. However, I'll have more units in a rapidly appreciating area, so that my equity is appreciating in more spaces and growing faster. So what do you think?

Robert Ritzenthaler: To your point, if your ROI is 25%, that's not bad. Because most likely trying to get another deal at 25% or better is a challenge. I think in this market if you can even hit 20%, you're in good shape. I would lean towards saying that probably makes sense. That was my question, if you could do $30,000 or more, I'd probably spend the $100,000. The next question is, you probably need to spend another $100,000, maybe $150,000 to furnish it. But if that gave you a better than, let's say $60,000 or $70,000 pop in income, hands down, you would do it. Now, the one downside is management. Obviously, the Airbnb type model takes more management, but factor in whatever your 5%, 10% management fee, whatever that is, and you may be ahead. But that's to your point, that's the exact math that I do.

If that ROI exceeds a new deal, then it probably makes sense, less a few extra expenses to your point, so maybe 25% is more like 20%. 25% for us, it's the bottom line. Really more like 30%. Most of the time is, in these value-add type deals, we want to see closer to 50% where we're getting a two-year payback, but worst case, three-year payback. I think in that scenario, you're borderline. Depending on what additional expenses you have, if it drops close to 20%, you might say, “Eh, it's not worth it. Let's go get a new deal. Capture my upside.” But again, if your new deal isn't in Over-the-Rhine, then maybe your appreciation isn't as high. There are those questions, too.

Slocomb Reed: Purely on cashflow, given my scenario, which is hopefully relatable to a lot of Best Ever listeners, but certainly not relatable to all of them, if it's just on a cash flow perspective, you're absolutely right. I think I'd increase my cash flow more by investing my money in the properties that I already have, not to mention these properties are on 30-year fixed-rate debt at 3.25% and 3.5%, which I'm not going to see again for a very long time, if ever. However, if I go buy another building now, I can make the decision to do all of the renovations later and I'll have three buildings to do it with instead of two. That's where I find myself.

Best Ever listeners, if you find yourself in a similar situation, I think it's a question of whether you prioritize long-term growth or cashflow currently. If you're an owner-operator, considering that the portfolio that you already own and manage, you understand. You're taking on a lot less hassle and a lot less risk renovating units you already understand and buildings you understand, than in acquiring a new building, especially if it's in a neighborhood like Central Cincinnati and it was built in 1870. Because Lord knows what's in those walls. Actually, on that note, about central Cincinnati, Robert, where are your properties in Cincinnati? What have you got here?

Robert Ritzenthaler: We are all over the place. We've got a couple on the west side. We've got one up Northside. We've got two in...

Slocomb Reed: You say you have a building in Northside?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Yep, and then we've got two up in... Well, they're not in the same neighborhood, but it's up in Roselawn, and then one just East of there. We're anywhere from one o'clock all the way around to about nine o'clock from downtown. And they're all about 10 minutes outside of downtown, so nothing downtown yet.

Slocomb Reed: My gut tells me C-class value-add cashflow.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Absolutely, yeah.

Slocomb Reed: Based on the neighborhoods that you're naming.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Actually, it's funny, because we got into Cincinnati. We wanted to be in Cincinnati, it took a while to find something. Our first deal, we bought and we have put very little into it so far. Although, I don't want to get too far behind the curve. Bottom line, the place has stayed 100% occupied. We raised rents $300 a month and we're still 100% occupied...

Slocomb Reed: What neighborhood is this?

Robert Ritzenthaler: It's crazy. Up there in Northside. It's just unbelievable how strong that market's been. It's an area that, as you know, it's improving, people want to move there. I think customer service and how we handle the residents is a big piece of it, but nonetheless, the market has been phenomenal.

Slocomb Reed: Robert, I have to have a Cincinnati nerd-out moment. I moved to Northside in 2018. A house hack, a three-family in Northside. I'm standing in an office on Hamilton Avenue, a building that I've renovated into office space. So I have to ask, when did you acquire your property in Northside?

Robert Ritzenthaler: [unintelligible 00:24:53], you're probably familiar with it, right up the hill. We bought it in --now you're going to put me on the spot-- 2020. It seems like a long time ago, but actually, it's not even two years.

Slocomb Reed: I was not looking at deals that size two, three years ago, personally. Otherwise, I would have been one of the people that you’d bid against. I'm aware of a few other buildings in Northside that I put [unintelligible 00:25:16] and didn't win. I was wondering if you got one of those. But no, the reason [unintelligible 00:25:22] that was too big and too long ago for me to have been your competitor.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Yeah, it's a great area, as you know. Again, it doesn't really matter whether it's 282 units or a single unit. It's just a great market, a great neighborhood, a lot of cool things happening. So yeah, good for you, man. That's awesome.

Slocomb Reed: Robert, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Let's do it.

Slocomb Reed: Excellent. What is the Best Ever book you've recently read?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Definitely a great book. It's called Leadership In Turbulent Times by Doris Kearns. Excellent historian, she's written a couple of other books. I love history, I love reading history, I feel like you can learn a lot. But it's a really great book on the biography, from a leadership perspective, of Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, and Johnson. I read it probably nine months ago. Excellent book, it's really good. You get different perspectives of how different people handle it, different political views. That's cool too, because you see the different sides of the spectrum, but it's a great book on leadership and something that I think probably anybody that's --even if you're not running a business, even in your work-- it's just a great read on leadership. So I highly recommend it.

Slocomb Reed: I've added it to my Audible wish list.

Robert Ritzenthaler: There you go. Cool.

Slocomb Reed: What is your Best Ever way to give back?

Robert Ritzenthaler: The number one way for us currently is we go to a church here in Bradenton. We've had a lot of folks that come into town because Florida is like the vacation state. Particularly pastors, they're burned out and they've got to deal with people like us all day long, so we actually decided about a year ago that we would create a space for them, we called it our guest house. And we've just dedicated it to them so they can come here, check out, take a week in Florida. These people don't make a lot of money, so it's a great opportunity for us to give back and just let them chill out, have some peace and quiet. Hopefully, when they go back, they feel rejuvenated and re-energized and ready to go back and help all of us out in our many problems and issues.

Slocomb Reed: Thus far in your commercial real estate investing career, what is the biggest mistake you've made and the Best Ever lesson you've learned from it?

Robert Ritzenthaler: There's a lot to that list, but I would say probably the biggest mistake that I've made is not being careful enough when it comes to picking partners. With all of our deals currently, I'm the managing partner, but in the past, I've shared partnership responsibilities. I've had some really great partners, but all it takes is one. That challenges your deal. Going forward, I just realized, “Hey, I've got to be really careful with that, to make sure that I've got people in alignment with what I'm doing and they put others first, and they really want to focus on making sure that the deal gets done correctly.” The great thing is, it's not the majority. I like to keep a positive spin on it.

I think it can be challenging. You definitely want to make sure that all your partners are with you and really focused on, “What if this deal goes south? Do we have the capital? Are we on the same page? Are we willing to chip in? Are we willing to do what it takes?”

I'm thankful that I have a really great team of guys that I've worked with on deals over the last four years. Some awesome people, some that are still with us, some that we're not partnering with anymore, but just some really good people. That's probably the biggest thing I've learned, is that it's really important to pick your partners carefully. Make sure that you get to know them, and make sure that they all do the right thing, and take care of the deal and take care of the investors.

Slocomb Reed: On that note, Robert, what is your Best Ever advice?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Same thing, I guess. That's a big piece of advice, I would say, too. But also from an investor standpoint, the same thing. I talk to a lot investors every week, I'm sure you do too. I always tell them, “Look, guys, number one, get to know your sponsor. Get to feel for who they are. Dig into their character.” Yeah, you can see what they perform, but you really want to get to know their character, because again, it comes back to people. The people that we invest in are really, at the end of the day, how we're going to do. I'm a big relationship guy. I encourage people to really spend time to get to know their sponsors, their GPs, whatever you want to call it. I think that's really powerful, and it'll help you go further faster as an investor.

There's a lot of folks that have their own deals and then they invest some money, they do a little bit of both. Same thing. Take that time to get to know somebody, I think that's important. I would say along those same lines, if you are an operator like we are, our motto or our business plan is it's not numbers, it's the right deal and the right people. And as long as we can continue to find the right people to manage the right deals, we’ll continue to grow. But we're not growing for growth's sake, that's for sure.

I think that you got to keep that compass before you at all times, because we're in a great market and it's easy to get caught up in the hype, but you want to make sure that you keep your core focus where it needs to be.

Slocomb Reed: Robert, where can people get in touch with you?

Robert Ritzenthaler: Probably the easiest is just my email, Not too complicated.

Slocomb Reed: Great.

Robert Ritzenthaler: Happy to chat/connect anytime.

Slocomb Reed: That link is in the show notes. Robert, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you’ve gained value from this conversation, please subscribe to our show. Please leave us a five-star review and please share this with a friend who you know that we can add value to with this conversation about leverage, adding value, and making investment decisions space on debt and cashflow. Thank you, and have a Best Ever day!


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