Yes, 3 Fourplexes for $220,000, scored by Theo! Hear about his networking hack that you need to implement TODAY. (cough cough) It involves social media. Hear about some updates with Joe, a recap from the BiggerPockets podcast interview, and of course Joe covers raising capital for other people's deals.
Best Ever Tweet: You have to have a license to raise money for other people's deals.
Watch Joe's entire BiggerPockets Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvqk4xOGRNQ&feature=youtu.be
The interview guide for Joe's BiggerPockets interview: https://joefairless.com/22-tactics-go-corporate-job-130000000-multifamily-real-estate/
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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Joe Fairless and this is the world's longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don't get into any fluff.
With us today, as we usually do, co-hosting on Follow Along Friday, Mr. Theo Hicks. Hello!
Theo Hicks: How's it going, Joe?
Joe Fairless: It's going well. First off, I wanna make sure I am not swaying in my chair, because there was a YouTube comment -- and Best Ever listeners, we do the Friday episode via Facebook Live, and the video is viewed on YouTube... So there was a comment, this guy said "Great content. Love this interview, love the XYZ point, but... You look really nervous when you sway in your chair so much." [laughs] I like just being active, but I will attempt not to sway in my chair, for everyone watching. For everyone listening, this doesn't pertain to you.
Theo, how are we going to structure today's conversation?
Theo Hicks: We've got some fun topics to talk about today, but first I wanted to just remind everyone about your Bigger Pockets interview that went live; I believed it would have gone live before the last week's episode release, but after we recorded last week's episode... For those who have listened to it, if you enjoy these Follow Along Fridays, I was explaining it to Joe, it reminds me of ten Follow Along Fridays condensed into a one hour and a half interview. He hit on so many different topics and tactics. If you want to have the show notes where you can click on specific tactics or topics that he talked about in that actual interview - if you go to the website and type in "22 tactics to go from a corporate job to 130 million dollars in real estate" (something along those lines) you will find a little sheet that we created where it every single 22 topics that Joe hit on, and you can just click on whatever you want.
If you wanna learn how to find deals in a hot market, just scroll down, click on that button and it'll send you right to that portion of the interview.
Joe Fairless: And when you're saying "the website", you're referring to thebesteverblog.com, which is our blog.
Theo Hicks: Yes.
Joe Fairless: By the time this airs, it will be about a week, about seven articles down, basically, when you scroll down; at most seven articles down. The other thing is one point I mentioned on interviews - the interview was about an hour and twenty minutes long... It was an incredibly in-depth interview, and as Theo mentioned, there were a lot of different topics, from scaling from single-family homes to multifamily, to what's in an investor package, to how to find deals in a hot market... And a lot of these things we have talked about before, but not in such a compressed manner in a relatively short period of time.
Additionally, if you go to the YouTube channel (just search "Best Ever Show Joe Fairless" on YouTube), then there is a keynote presentation that I did at the Best Ever Conference in Denver, Colorado this past February. That is a keynote that talks about how to raise money, seven habits that I implement to set myself up for success, and more tactical things as well. So there's a lot of good content, and with this episode that's airing - this Follow Along Friday - maybe we'll put the 22 ways plus the link to the keynote on YouTube; [to Theo] you wanna put each of those links in the show notes, that way they can easily just click on it.
Theo Hicks: I'll do that, for sure. I was actually listening to your keynote this morning, and I'll take post-it notes [unintelligible 00:05:53.10] number five and number six that you went over. You'll listen to a very motivational speech, but you'll also get actual tactics and habits to implement as well.
Joe Fairless: And the "You are dying" part will have much more context when you actually watch the video. [laughter]
Theo Hicks: You kind of dropped that bomb in there... [laughter] A lot more context, yes.
Joe Fairless: Cool.
Theo Hicks: I guess another thing we wanted to talk about - I've got three deal under contract.
Joe Fairless: You mentioned this to me right before we started recording... He said that he had three off-market deals under contract, and I was like "Well, you're gonna steal the show today, because I wanna hear about this." So tell us.
Theo Hicks: It was funny, I was explaining to Joe beforehand that I got my real estate license a year and a half ago. I got the license, and I never really use it for anything -- I promise you this will make sense... I didn't use it for anything, I let it go; I guess it got suspended, I let it just sit void for a while until I maybe wanted to act on it again, so I was kind of upset that I got that license, because it was a couple thousand dollars... I was like, "I can't believe I spent all that time, all that money and all that effort getting my license", but in one of the classes this real estate agent came in, who happened to take the course six months prior, and he came in and he was kind of talking about his business... And we just happened to randomly go up and start talking to him after the class.
He was talking about how he was working with investors, [unintelligible 00:07:12.11] meet up a couple of times... We kind of got to know him a little bit, but not like that big a relationship...
Joe Fairless: Was he a presenter to the group?
Theo Hicks: He was a presenter to the group, yes. So then I didn't talk to him for a year probably, but I was friends with him on Facebook... So this past weekend a deal came up on the MLS that was in Pleasant Ridge, Cincinnati; it was a fourplex, it was listed for 225k... It happened this past week and we were actually planning on going to St. Louis to look at deals too, and in the last second I'm like, "Oh, I'm not going to St. Louis." So I think we saw the deal on a Friday night come up on the MLS. I called my agent and I was like, "Hey, we wanna see this deal", and I got no response, because I think she's out for dinner, or something... And I know that this deal is gonna go by really fast, so I'm like "How can we get this deal?" I keep texting her, I keep texting her.
Then Marcela, who's my partner, she's on the couch and she's kind of randomly scrolling through Facebook, and she comes across this real estate agent's Facebook page; he had posted the deal on his Facebook page... And I was like, "Oh, it's his listing!" So I call him up and I was like, "Hey, we see this one listing on Facebook that you have, a fourplex in Pleasant Ridge - can we see it? Because my agent's not responding and we wanna see it." He was like, "Yeah. By the way, there's five properties. Four of them are off-market, and one of them is on market." I was like, "This is amazing! I'm in town, I almost left town, and now I've got these four off-market deals that I'm gonna be able to see after it was listed for like an hour." It literally just came on the market when I called him.
So I'm going back and forth, and on the next day we schedule to go see all five of them. My agent comes too, and we put in offers on three of them -- obviously, on two of the ones on market and one off-market, but... And this is kind of funny - I had a friend who had also bought a fourplex in Pleasant Ridge, Joey, and I thought that he bought it for 150k, so I was like "There's no way our property's gonna appraise at 225k, 215k or 200-anything", so we offered 190k. They were just like "No, this is silly, we're not gonna counter-offer you." Then we offered 205, and they were like, "No, we're still not gonna counter-offer you." I find out from Joey he didn't buy it for 150k, he bought it for 200k, so we basically almost lost the deal because we underbid by so much and we didn't understand how much the properties actually were worth.
So essentially, we took so long that both the two properties on market went away, and the three off-market ones were still there. So we submitted an offer for 215k; they came back and said "Two of these are gone, so [unintelligible 00:09:30.15]; we'll counter-offer you at 220k for the one." But what about the other two? Can we put in offers on those? They're like "Yeah, they're still available, but be quick." So we put three offers in at 220k for the three off-market fourplexes, and I just got the third response this morning that we've got it.
Joe Fairless: Wow. Three fourplexes for 220k.
Theo Hicks: 220k, yeah.
Joe Fairless: Wow, congratulations.
Theo Hicks: Thank you.
Joe Fairless: That's incredible. What type of business plan are you doing with them?
Theo Hicks: The plan is to hold them long-term. For now, at the very least ten years we plan on holding them for; so what we're gonna do is we're gonna buy them, and -- [unintelligible 00:10:09.20] They were built in the 1950s, so they have that crazy technicolored tile in the bathrooms and on the floors. They're fully occupied. At the current rents and at the current purchase price, each one will cashflow about $600/month, and each unit is about $25 below market. For some of the tenants we already know that we wanted to raise the rents in order to either have them pay more or force them out because they were smokers. Their leases are month-to-month, so we'll be able to do that.
Our goal is to raise the rents $25, and the ones that say no, we're gonna go in there and fix up the units -- not to some same level... I'm actually gonna fix them up to the same level I fixed up my first property that I bought: new countertops, backsplash...
Joe Fairless: Do you do that work?
Theo Hicks: No, I have a guy who does work really inexpensively. He's my age, he likes doing handy work, and I kind of just randomly met him... But something else that's interesting, too - I got these deals all through relationships, and I also found these contractors through relationships... I started going back to my cross-fit gym on Monday, and there were just three of us in the gym, and one of the guys I didn't know who he was. At the end we start talking and I find out that he's a fix and flipper, of course... I run into these real estate guys everywhere; once I need these people, they just show up in your life. He lives right next to my property, he owns a fourplex in that same area, and he says that he had the issue of that crazy tile in all those properties, and apparently he has a contractor that does some sort of glaze, and he can glaze all the tiles white. So our plan is for all the people that move out of properties, instead of having to take off all the tile -- because it's literally like everywhere... So instead of taking off all the tiles in the bathrooms and in the kitchens, we're just gonna glaze them all a color. That will save us an amount of money.
Joe Fairless: Oh, big time.
Theo Hicks: So that's the plan - we're gonna put [unintelligible 00:11:53.05] countertops that look like granite but they're not granite from Home Depot. They have this wood paneling around, kind of the bottom half of the walls, so we'll take that off and then paint the walls. The cabinets are nice, all the appliances are good enough... It's like a B area, so we don't need to put stainless steel in there.
Joe Fairless: And it's a B area that's continuing to improve, too...
Theo Hicks: Yeah, we talked to -- apparently every appraisal that's coming in is like a record high appraisal. The area is just heating up. In Cincinnati there's a high park in Oakley -- or at least down where I live, those are like the two really nice areas. Oakley is like in insane demand right now. They're building four brand new 200+ apartment complexes. They're building the fifth 86-unit right now, and they're all within a one square mile area... It's insane in Oakley right now, and Pleasant Ridge is like the next area where people are like "Alright, we've gotta go here to find properties...", because it's like $2,000 to rent out two bedrooms in Oakley right now. So it's just beginning to heat up in Pleasant Ridge, so when these came on market I knew that they were gonna go by fast.
All the deals are gone now, and they went on the market -- I mean, only two of them went on the market like 72 hours ago, so...
Joe Fairless: How do you get financing for three properties simultaneously?
Theo Hicks: We're in a unique situation just because Marcela makes a lot of money... So we're actually both putting our names on the loan, because we both are providing down payments - 25% down payment. Since I don't have any debt at all (I have zero debt), I'm not even claiming income for this. I'm basically zero income, zero expenses; I just put my name on the loan and I can use my money in the loan without having to do something weird, to somehow give it to Marcela so that she can use it. And then her income qualifies us enough to get the three properties.
Joe Fairless: Will it be three separate loans?
Theo Hicks: Yeah, sorry, three separate loans. They're all 30-year amortized, fixed rate. Something else that I wanted to talk about too is about shopping around for lenders. We had a lender that we bought our primary residence on - a really nice lady, she helped us out a lot. So we went to her for lending on this deal and she said "I can get you a 5% interest rate at 30 years", and we were like "Okay. 5% seems fine." Joey got 5% on his loan, too. But again, the random relationships - my girlfriend's at work, talking about buying these properties, and some guy that works there also owns a property on that street somehow (magically), and he mentions a lender that he uses. We reach out to him, and he can get us a 4.5% interest rate loan, at -- I think he said it was like $618 to pay it down. But we're also refinancing our primary residence [unintelligible 00:14:25.28] PMI and dropped interest rate on that, too. For some reason we get like a credit for doing that, so that credit is actually gonna cover some of the closing costs and the loan fee we have paid. So that .5% interest rate was huge for our cash-on-cash return.
Joe Fairless: The same lender is refinancing your primary?
Theo Hicks: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: Oh, they hit a homerun.
Theo Hicks: Yeah, nearly a million dollar in loans.
Joe Fairless: They nailed it with you. What's their company? Is it just a mortgage broker? If you don't know, that's fine.
Theo Hicks: I don't know off the top of my head.
Joe Fairless: So it's not a well-known company; it's like some guy who has a brokerage business and he finds the best loan options based on that.
Theo Hicks: It's kind of like a hybrid between -- usually, for regular lenders [unintelligible 00:15:06.11] it was American Mortgage, I think... And she said that we were maxed out at four loans at this point. So we can do four loans in there, maxed out, so we can't use that anymore. This guy, he can do up to ten loans. I can't remember which does 10 - Freddie or Fannie; I think it's Freddie. But he must them. But then he said, "Once you get past that, I do commercial loans too, so you can just use me, basically forever." We were like, "Okay, yeah. For sure."
Joe Fairless: When are you scheduled to close?
Theo Hicks: 8th July.
Joe Fairless: Alright.
Theo Hicks: 45 days. I'm really excited, I'm glad to be back in the real estate game. I bought a property about a year and a half ago, and then we were taking a break; we had all this money saved up, and we were like "We need to buy property, we need to buy property", and it happened to work out. We just came on the market, we knew the guy who was the listing agent, so we found out that there are three off-market deals; we got all three of those off-market deals and we're expecting it all to work out totally fine.
Joe Fairless: You'll keep us posted every Friday.
Theo Hicks: Exactly.
Joe Fairless: Yeah, nice work. Congrats.
Theo Hicks: Alright, now we've got some Best Ever listener questions. These are long, so I'll try not to read the entire question. The first one is from Loe, who currently has been a single-family resident investor for ten years and is wanting to transition into larger multifamily. He says that he's been working with a local multifamily investor who owns a property management company [unintelligible 00:16:26.09] This investor is giving him an opportunity to raise money for a deal, 106 units (congrats on that), that he's refinancing in the next 30-45 days. He purchased it subject to, it took about a year to rehab, repair and get it occupied [unintelligible 00:16:41.10]. The question: "My role is to only raise money for the down payment. Should I ask to be a part of the syndication, to receive cash flow and get a certain percentage of the equity down the road? Or should I accept a referral fee?" He added, "Honestly, I'm more interested in participating in receiving cashflow and equity on the backend. What should I ask for if I raised the two million dollars needed for the deal?"
Joe Fairless: Well, if you're only raising money for the deal, then you may not be compensated for doing so unless you're a broker-dealer. You have to have a certain license to only raise money for other people's deals and get compensated for it. It's an SEC requirement. So what I recommend that you do -- what's this person's name?
Theo Hicks: Loe.
Joe Fairless: Loe - what I recommend you do, and any Best Ever listener who has this situation presented to them, is become a general partner on the deal and have more responsibility than simply raising money. You'll need to do some research on this, but essentially - and I'm not an SEC attorney or a legal expert, but in addition to bringing your investors, you will need to do due diligence on the property, provide insight, market analysis, whatever... But you can't just be a gun for hire for raising money, unless you have a certain license; I'm not exactly sure what that license is, but you can google it.
Let's assume that you are going to be in the general partnership and you have additional responsibilities other than simply raising money - again, it can be due diligence responsibilities, asset management, investor communication, whatever... Then the two million dollars - if that's how much you're bringing - I would recommend making at least 20 cents on the dollar at minimum for what you bring. That would be $400,000 that you would wanna make over the lifetime of the project for bringing two million. And how you determine the percent ownership of what that $400,000 equals is you simply look at the projected profits for the overall project and divide $400,000 into the projected profits. You'll get a percentage, and that should be your percentage of the general partnership ownership.
Theo Hicks: So take on additional responsibilities and then 20 cents on the dollar over the lifetime of the loan, based off of how much money that he raised.
Joe Fairless: Yeah, and then you determine what percentage that equals by looking at the total projected profits on the general partnership side, and then doing some division; then whatever your percentage is, $400,000 divided by total profits, that's your percent ownership that you would get.
Theo Hicks: Okay, that definitely answers his question. I'm trying to see if there's anything else they asked... Nope, that's it.
Okay, the second question is from Chris. It's another long one, I'll try to skip over the parts that we don't need to talk about. Actually, this is like a three-part question. "The first thing I'm trying to accomplish is to find a mentor in Columbus (Ohio, I'm assuming), who already has a large multifamily portfolio and knows the market well. I offer to contribute whatever I can in order to learn from their experience and meet people in their network. Does that seem like a reasonable first start?"
Joe Fairless: Sure, that seems like a reasonable first start. I would do two things - I would go to Bigger Pockets, search for people in Columbus, Ohio and see who's doing multifamily deals. I would also search "multifamily apartment owners" or just "apartment owners Columbus Ohio" and get the people who own apartments in that area. If you want to get a little bit more in depth with it, then go to the county website, see who owns the apartments and start reaching out to them. Say, "Hey, I saw you on XYZ. I'm not looking to sell anything to you, I'm just looking to add value to your business in whatever way I can, because I see you own some properties and I'm just trying to learn the business."
Then I would also go to -- I know I said a couple things; I'm giving you more... I would also go to bestevershow.com, which is our podcast page, and then you can see a map of the United States, and you'll be able to see who we've interviewed in Columbus, Ohio and if they own apartments, and then just reach out to them. Say "I heard you on the Best Ever Show and I want to add value to your life in the following ways. Are you interested?"
Theo Hicks: Yeah, that last one was my advice, to search for the Best Ever Show. So, to continue... "To put it more broadly, if you were 34 and just starting out, knowing what you know now, what would you do?" I'll keep reading, to see more context of his situation. "My goal is to become financially independent -- because I knew you were gonna go "What's your goal?" So my goal is to become financially independent as soon as I can, without doing anything unethical or illegal (smart idea). I genuinely want to add value, contribute to the community and create wealth for my partners. I work remotely, so I can spend some time in Columbus. I want to be active, learn the market, find deals, put deals together etc. I'm not trying to buy turnkey and be totally hands off. Having said that, I can't leave New York City, nor do I really want to for the foreseeable future because of my wife's job. I almost certainly need to hire a third-party management company. I have about $50,000 in cash to play with, which really isn't that much in multifamily, so I won't be a big equity contributor, at least initially. I'm thinking about things like, should I partner with someone locally or go it alone? Do I start with single family residents or do I go straight to multifamily? What is your advice?
So his goal is financial independence; he actually wants to be active, but not too active, because it looks like he'll be investing out of state. He's got 50k. What should he do to start off?
Joe Fairless: I was with him up until when he said "Should I start with single families?", because now he's going in a different direction. I don't know what you should start with... If you want to start with single family, start with single family; build your way up from there and get more comfortable. If you wanna start with multifamily, you can start with multifamily. You can do it either way. With that answer, I suspect the thought is "Well, shoot, I'll just do larger stuff." If that is the thought, then the path would be to first make sure you know what you're talking about... Because if you don't know what you're talking about and you are dealing with larger numbers, you're gonna lose a lot of money and it's gonna be an issue.
The other thing is I frequently come across people who want to raise money -- but should you raise money? That's a question that you should ask yourself, because if you don't have real estate experience and don't have a relevant occupation that either you've excelled in or you've got an entrepreneurial background, then I don't know if you should be raising money right out of the gate. You probably should get more real estate experience, you probably should shadow some people in the industry in New York City, and then apply those lessons - although it's a different market - in other markets like Columbus. Certainly, there's a lot of nuances for New York City multifamily than other markets, but there are some general principles about how to structure deals, how to work with investors, how to [unintelligible 00:25:04.09] projects etc.
I'll summarize by saying 1) you've gotta figure out if you wanna do single family or multifamily; it's two completely different paths. 2) if you choose multifamily, then you've got to have either real estate experience - which, in this case, it doesn't sound like he does - or you've got to be successful in your full-time job and have relevant skillsets that apply to commercial. Then you've gotta partner up with someone who has that large experience on a couple of deals. I don't recommend doing it right out of the gate on your own, unless you have someone that you're seeking out, which is smart of you to seek out someone (that was your first question).
Then, once you take that approach, you've gotta have the education to know what is a good deal, what isn't a good deal, what are the pitfalls, and again, that comes with the partnership angle. So really, it's not just someone you're able to call up, but it's someone who's gonna walk you through the process and mitigate as much risk as possible, and perhaps even partner with you on a deal.
What would I do if I was 34 years old living in New York City? Well, I was 30 years old, living in New York City, and I had four single-family homes. What I did is I read a bunch of books, I hired a consultant - for better or worse; I have mixed feelings about that - I was very active on Bigger Pockets. I reached out to people, I traveled to different markets, I made offers, I had investor conversations, and I just -- it was blissful ignorance, quite frankly, and I mentioned that in the Bigger Pockets interview. But things ended up working out, and if I had to do it all over again, I would have had a different consultant helping me through it, and I would have had a better layer of protection, to mitigate more of the risk. But here I am, 3-4 years later, 130 million dollars worth of real estate. So that's the approach I would take starting out, if I were you.
Theo Hicks: I'd add one thing, because again, you tossed out the "Do I do single family or do I do multifamily?", since you mentioned you have money -- obviously, you can't do the house hacking because you're not investing where you're investing, but you can do 203k investment loans (rehab loans) [unintelligible 00:27:26.08] 25% down. I know Wells Fargo does one. My friend, Joey, he had a deal where he put 25% down and all the renovation costs were included in the loan. So at $50,000, you can be all in at 200k, around there (probably a little bit less). So if you find a two-family or four-family in Columbus that needs a lot of work (or some work), that's another option you can use - do a 203k investment loan, put the $50,000 down, or $40,000 down, whatever you're comfortable with, and do the rehabs. You have that added value, you rent it out, you get the experience that you need, and then you either repeat that again, until you get more experience, or follow Joe's advice, do a combination of the two, just because it looks like you're ready to go, you've got some money.
If you've got some experience, which I can't tell it from this, that might be the other option that you can use.
Joe Fairless: Yeah. It's very similar, I had $50,000 starting out when I left the advertising world. It was very similar - I was 30, I had $50,000 and I was looking to do multifamily syndication. It was just three or four years ago.
I will say, for Best Ever listeners who are ready to do this multifamily syndication, I wanna address the $50,000 thing - that is enough money to get going. Now, there's risk, so let me tell you what you'd allocate the money for.
I would allocate the money $25,000 to invest alongside investors, to have that alignment of interest, the other $25,000 to cover any costs that come up for travel or expenses that are not paid at closing. Now, the risk is that if you go through the due diligence, you sign a loan commitment with a lender, you get legal advice etc. and you don't close, well then you're out of pocket all these costs. So there's a risk in doing these deals that a lot of people don't talk about. If you go through the whole process and you don't do them, then you're gonna have to pay all these vendors back for inspections, etc.
$50,000 certainly is enough to do as large of a syndication as you need. The caveats would be the earnest money deposit, you probably would need more on top of the 50k, but that's refundable. So if you can talk to one of your investors... And I did that - one of my investors put up a $50,000 earnest money deposit and I wrote him a personal guarantee that "Hey, if we lose this refundable $50,000, then I will pay you back." We didn't. It's refundable, so that's something that you can do to bring in people. If you need to pay them a percentage or two to motivate them or to compensate them for them taking the money out, then that's fine. Mine didn't ask me to, but I just wanted to address that.
Theo Hicks: Okay, that wraps up that question. Anything else? If there's nothing else, I think [unintelligible 00:30:15.10]
Joe Fairless: [unintelligible 00:30:18.13] That's the most important aspect of our conversation today.
Theo Hicks: It is. [laughs].
Joe Fairless: Congrats on your three fourplexes that are under contract and closing in July. Best Ever listeners, if you haven't received the apartment resources guide, there's a bunch of free resources that we've put together of websites, books, podcasts, YouTube channels that we recommend you listen to, then you can e-mail info@JoeFairless.com and ask for the resource guide.
Now, we are off to play some basketball...
Theo Hicks: We are, one-on-one, right?
Joe Fairless: We're playing one-on-one... Theo is a very humble man, and when I asked him last week if he plays basketball, he says "Yeah, I'm very good." [laughter] "Oh, okay..." So we're gonna go play one-on-one, assuming it doesn't rain on us... And what do we play to? 13, 15?
Theo Hicks: Something like that - 13, 12, 11...
Joe Fairless: Let's do 13 by ones and twos.
Theo Hicks: Alright.
Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, here's what we'll do... I haven't told Theo about this, but I was thinking about it earlier - if you e-mail us what you think the total points (ow about total points?)... We're playing the 13 by ones and twos. You have to win by two. If you e-mail us with who you think will win, either me or Theo, and total points scored, whoever is correct on who won, and if there's a tie-break -- which there will be, it'll be more than two people who e-mail... Total points would be the tie-breaker, and whoever is the winner, we'll mail you both volume one and volume two of The Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever books and we'll sign those copies. So e-mail info@JoeFairless.com who you think is gonna win between me and Theo in basketball, playing to 13 by ones and twos, you have to win by two - so who you think is gonna win and total points scored in the game. Whoever is correct with who won, and the tie-breaker will be total points, we'll mail you volume one and volume two of the book.
Theo Hicks: Let's just tell a little bit more information - how tall are you?
Joe Fairless: 5'10"-5'11"...
Theo Hicks: I'm 6'4". [laughter] I'm gonna throw that out there, just so people could do the scores perfectly.
Joe Fairless: I play good defense. [laughs] Alright, Best Ever listeners, thanks a lot for spending some time with us. We'll talk to you soon!