She’s a contractor, a real estate investor, and get this… an auctioneer! She holds all three of those licenses yet relishes in teaching others how to jump into real estate. Hear her Tennessee story.
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Whitney Nicely Real Estate Background:
– Principal Broker with Whitney Buys Houses, LLC
– Principal auctioneer at Nicely Done Auctions, LLC, a leading real estate auction company
– Teaches women how to build a cash flowing real estate portfolio in 12 weeks or less
– Has auctioned properties from 1 acre with a house to 215+ acres of rolling hills
– Based in Knoxville, Tennessee
– Say hi to her at https://www.whitneynicely.com/
– Best Ever Book: The Shoemaker of Dreams
Click here for a summary of Whitney’s Best Ever advice: http://bit.ly/2pkMs81
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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any fluff.
With us today, Whitney Nicely. How are you doing, Whitney?
Whitney Nicely: I’m doing great, how are you today?
Joe Fairless: I’m doing great as well, nice to have you on the show. A little bit about Whitney – she is the principal broker with Whitney Buys Houses. She is also the principle auctioneer – this is very interesting – at Nicely Done Auctions, which is a leading real estate auction company. She teaches women on how to build a cash-flowing real estate portfolio in 12 weeks or less, and has auctioned properties from one acre with a house to 250+ acres of rolling hills. Based in Knoxville, Tennessee… With that being said, Whitney, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your focus?
Whitney Nicely: I’m also a general contractor; I’m heavily licensed, and I’m a millennial, and I like to think I’m the millennial millionaire next door.
Joe Fairless: Nice! What’s your focus and how have you made your millions?
Whitney Nicely: I specialize in owner financing and lease options, so you don’t have to put a whole lot of money down to buy a house, and cash-flow it quickly.
Joe Fairless: Okay, you do owner financing and lease options… What’s with being the auctioneer in the auction company?
Whitney Nicely: I’ve always gone to Saturday sales with my parents. Since I was a kid, I remember going to Saturday auction real estate sales, and I just decided that if I was gonna have a real estate license, I might as well have an auctions license also, because that’s what I really remember going to and enjoying – the Saturday real estate auctions.
I got a license, but I have not been as active with my auctioneering license as I have teaching other people how to get into real estate. I may go back to it later this year, but for right now I am buying and flipping, and lease optioning, and teaching other people how to do it, more than I am auctioning.
Joe Fairless: We’ll talk about the buying and flipping and owner financing and lease options, but just to make the proper segue – why not focus on the auction process? I assume it’s because it wasn’t as profitable as what you’re doing now, but I don’t wanna assume that and not ask the question.
Whitney Nicely: Well, it got to where I was just so much more excited about lease options and buying houses. The thing that I do enjoy about auctions is that they’re in and out and done. I was a regular listing agent for about 18 months and I hated it. But I was an agent with an auction company, and in the same 18 months I did two or three options and I loved that side of it. So doing the auctions was trying to figure out where I wanted to be and what I wanted to do.
I do like the auctions. The auctions that I do are usually on free and clear properties, and people are wanting just to move them, cash out and buy another investment with them. I don’t do Saturday sales and go [unintelligible [00:05:11].11] all of our auctions were online also. It just got to be where I was sitting there, talking to people who wanted to sell, and I could make them an offer and buy it right then and not have to go through the auction; I could just buy it. So it really kind of accidentally went to the backside.
Joe Fairless: Right… So you’re still getting the leads, you’re just not holding them for auction, you’re buying them for yourself.
Whitney Nicely: Yeah, and I have a hard time with agents who are going on a listing appointment with somebody who wants to sell their house, and the agent can’t see the buying opportunities for the listing commission that they’ll get in 60 or 90 days, when they could cash-flow this thing forever and ever. I got to be the same way with the auctions, too. I was talking to somebody who wanted to get rid of it; they wanted a price, they wanted monthly payments, and it turned out that the auction wasn’t the best solution for them.
Joe Fairless: That makes sense. The more you got into it, the more you realized that doing the auction wasn’t in the best interest for anyone for some properties, because you could either buy them, or they could do some sort of workout with someone else.
Let’s talk about what you’re focused on now – as you mentioned, lease options. Can you tell us the last deal you did, and the numbers on it?
Whitney Nicely: Yes, I had a house… It was a three-bedroom, two-bath, and the backside of it had caught on fire a number of years ago, and I had it under contract for a lease option for $6,000 with $100 and $200/month paid off whenever it was I paid off $6,000, so 5-6 years at $200/month.
This actually happened last night… I sold it on a lease option for $12,000, with $5,000 down and $300/month. So I bought it for $6,000, I sold it for $12,000. This morning I was talking to my seller and he was like, “Well, what if we didn’t do the lease option? How much would you give me just to cash it out?” and I said, “I could give you 3k”, and he said “Okay, fine.” So now I bought the house, people gave me 5k, I’m giving it to my seller, and I get to keep 2k, and now I’m cash-flowing $300/month on a $7,000 balance.
Joe Fairless: How many of those do you have in your portfolio?
Whitney Nicely: Little bitty crackhouses like that? Two.
Joe Fairless: So what does your portfolio mainly consist of?
Whitney Nicely: Pretty houses; three-two’s in normal, working-class areas; 100k, up to 150k. I usually don’t do the little bitty dinky houses, but I kind of like this deal. When was the last time you made $9,000 on a $3,000 house?
Joe Fairless: Yeah, it sounds like you got some great returns from a cash-on-cash standpoint, that’s for sure. Let’s go to your bread-and-butter then, since you don’t do those smaller things as regularly… Can you talk about the last 100k-150k house that you did and give some numbers on that?
Whitney Nicely: It was outside of Knoxville, Tennessee, and I bought it for what the people owed on it, for 145k, and ARV on it was about 170k. So I put it up on Zillow and Craigslist and I got a couple that came in, gave me $10,000 as a non-refundable option fee, and they started making the payments. Now, my payments out to my seller are about $1,000/month, and my payments from my tenant buyer are $1,000/month. So on that one I’m not making any money a month, but I’ve got $10,000 down that I don’t have to give anybody, and I got it for 145k, I sold it for 169k. So there’s 24k, plus the 10k, there’s 35k that I’m gonna make on the deal just for floating the checks for a couple years.
Now, there’s a chance also that my tenant buyer will extend; they’ve got two years to get a mortgage on this one, but if they extend it, they give me another $10,000 down and then I’m up to almost 45k on the whole deal.
Joe Fairless: And those $10,000 down payments go towards their closing, whenever they exercise the option to purchase?
Whitney Nicely: It depends on how you set up the lease option. On these I am giving them credit in that first $10,000, but I get to keep $5,000 for me. That’s just my fee for putting the deal together. Then whatever [unintelligible [00:09:40].21] buyer gives me on top of that, I’ll take towards their purchase price. But in this deal I’m not giving them any of the monthly credit towards the purchase price, whereas I’m getting 20% or about $200/month of the principle that I’m paying, so I’m creating another little spread there.
Joe Fairless: That makes sense; that’s profit all the way around, except for the monthly payment, but I suspect that’s an exception, not the norm for these lease options.
Whitney Nicely: I try to get it where I’m at least $200/month. I’ve got some where I’m almost $500/month on top of my payments.
Joe Fairless: And how many of those 100k-150k homes do you have in your portfolio?
Whitney Nicely: I have 16 of those. I’ve got the two little dinky ones.
Joe Fairless: And what’s the end game for you with those homes? Because ultimately, if they purchase them – or when they exercise their option to purchase – you’ll have a chunk of cash… What do you do with that cash?
Whitney Nicely: I buy apartments. I’ve got 19 apartment units, and I’ve also got seven chunks of land. I’ve got a great story about land, too. I bought a half-acre piece of industrial land at an auction in the summer of 2013, and I actually bought it with my brother because I didn’t know what I was doing at the time, and I figured if I had a partner, if it was bad, we’d split it. Well, it’s good, and we’re splitting that now.
But anyway, we paid $1,500 – tax [unintelligible [00:11:02].29] title, auctioneer fee, all that jazz. $1,500 we were in for this half-acre piece of industrial land. About three months later I rented the driveway – just the driveway – for $250/month to our neighbor.
Well, in February of this past year – we go to Florida every year for February, my family and I – and when my brother showed up, he was like “Guess what!? I rented the land!” I said, “Well, how much did you get?” Because at this point we’ve been paid back for almost three years now. He was like “$500/month.” So now we’re getting $750/month on a $1,500 investment that we’ve already been cash-flowing for three years.
Joe Fairless: Was the rent for that $500 the same person who was renting it for $250?
Whitney Nicely: No, two different people.
Joe Fairless: And what are they renting it for?
Whitney Nicely: Outside storage.
Joe Fairless: And do you have to build something on it?
Whitney Nicely: No.
Joe Fairless: Can you elaborate?
Whitney Nicely: They just needed the land. I’ve got like a hierarchy… There’s a pyramid of the way land is zoned – you know this… So it’s agricultural, then residential, then commercial, and at the top is industrial. Well, industrial land is not as plentiful as agricultural or residential, but it’s also because you don’t want a landfill in your subdivision. The county does this on purpose, to make sure that you don’t have something disgusting in a nice subdivision.
Well, this is industrial land, in the city of Knoxville, next to big, heavy machinery, and actually the people that rent our driveway have the contract with the city to do all the recycling. So they bring the recycling back to the lot next to us, and crunch it down and then haul it off to wherever you take recycling stuff to be processed and back out into the public. Well, the guy that wanted to rent the half-acre from us (the actual land) he does outside storage, roll off containers, so they’re kind of in competition, except our driveway tenant already has the city contract for picking up recycling, and this guy is contracting out to wholesalers and flippers and investors who need a dumpster in the driveway so they can clear out the house and then haul it off. And you have to have land that’s zoned industrial to have outside storage with big, heavy-duty, ugly stuff.
Joe Fairless: That’s a really interesting story. This is gonna be a stupid question… What type of paperwork do you draw up to have someone lease your land? I know what a lease agreement looks like with a tenant, but how is that different for land?
Whitney Nicely: In ours, especially when I was doing the driveway, I wanted to make sure that — they’re paying us $250/month, but we’re not doing anything, so I put it in there that if the driveway needs gravel, if it needs to be graded, if it needs a tree cleared off, it’s their responsibility. Don’t call me for anything, just send me the $250 and we’ll be good.
Actually, I went and talked to them, and this is a big Fortune 500 company that we’re dealing with, that rents our driveway, and I was thinking $100/month would be good. Well, when I went to meet with them and I told them that they were driving on my driveway, they were like “No, little real estate girl, we’re not… We’re fine, we’ve been driving on this driveway since before you were born, and it’s ours.” [laughter] And I was like, “No, dude… Get you surveyor out here, check this out…” and they called me in two weeks and they were like, “Hey, how about $250/month? Turns out you own half the driveway… Who knew?” And I was like “I knew that. Whatever… Yeah, okay.” So I called my brother and I was like “Is $250 good?” and he was like, “Yeah, take it! Take it right now!” and I was like “Okay…” What’s really cool is they paid us back rent from when we bought it.
Joe Fairless: Oh, because they’d been using it?
Whitney Nicely: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: And how many months was that?
Whitney Nicely: It was three, maybe six months by the time it was all said and done. It wasn’t a lot, but it still gave us pretty much all of our money back. It was awesome.
So you can put anything really that you want to in these lease agreements. In the lease agreement that we have that my brother got for the land, it says that if he wants to build anything, he just has to get it approved by the city and he can build something, but when he leaves, the building is ours.
Joe Fairless: Have they built anything?
Whitney Nicely: No.
Joe Fairless: How did your brother secure the $500, do you know?
Whitney Nicely: I believe the guy have him a check for three months in advance.
Joe Fairless: Sorry, that wasn’t a good question. Let me be even more specific. How did he know to go to them for potential renting of the land? Was the $250 lease up and therefore you needed to get a new lease?
Whitney Nicely: No, the $250 is just on the driveway… Just for the driveway. It has nothing to do with the land. We actually tried to get them to rent the land from us AND the driveway for like $500 and they didn’t wanna do it. So we have two now… We have the lease on the driveway and the lease on the land.
Joe Fairless: Oh, so you’re getting $750/month. Okay, cool… Even better.
Whitney Nicely: But my brother… He sells dump trucks. My mom has a dump truck company; I’m the fourth generation entrepreneur, but I quit trucking and got into real estate full-time; my brother’s still trucking… So he was just talking to a guy, trying to get a job, and the guy was like, “Hey, do you know where I could rent some outside storage space?” So we weren’t advertising at all, because $250 that we’re getting is good, and Tyler just happened into a conversation with somebody who needed what we had, and he called and he was like, “What will you take?” and I was like “I don’t care!” [laughter] “Get him to sign up and start paying.”
Joe Fairless: Right, I love it. And the last question that, with the driveway, $250, in your original lease agreement — because I don’t know if you foresaw leasing the entire thing… I know I probably would have made the mistake, “Oh, they’re renting the driveway… Sure, $250”, but I probably wouldn’t have thought to specify it JUST the driveway, that way later I could lease the rest of the half acre. Did you specify in the $250 JUST the driveway?
Whitney Nicely: Just the driveway, because where their land meets our land, I didn’t want them to start creeping in on us without me saying, “Oh, wait a second…” So yes, in that lease with them it specifies “You get the driveway.” It’s like 250 sq. feet, or something; it’s a straight line, we drew a map and everything. [laughter]
Joe Fairless: Excellent. Alright, let’s talk about your 19 apartment units. What can you tell us about those?
Whitney Nicely: They’re all small units. I’ve got a triplex, and then I’ve got a 5-unit, and then we’ve got an 11-unit, which turns out to be a four, a six and a house… But it’s all on one parcel, so we’ve got a three, a five and an eleven.
Joe Fairless: Let’s talk about the 11-unit. How long ago did you buy it?
Whitney Nicely: We bought all three of them actually within about two weeks of each other.
Joe Fairless: And when was that?
Whitney Nicely: The beginning of 2015.
Joe Fairless: Can you tell us the story about the three that you bought relatively soon after each other?
Whitney Nicely: The five and eleven, so 16 of them, they were actually owned by a school teacher who lived out — it’s kind of a little country town, it doesn’t even have a red light; it does have a post office box, but it does not have a red light. So they were out there in the middle of pretty much nowhere. A school teacher owned them, and he wasn’t trained properly in real estate, and he bought them not at the high of the market, but he decided to flip them at the high of the market. So he took out a home equity line of credit, or borrowed against an — I don’t even know how he got more money, but he got an extra 100k or 150k and he started redoing these things.
He did a really good job redoing them – floors, counters, appliances, windows, roof… He redid almost everything in almost every single one of them. But then, because he wasn’t really trained, he’d never been in real estate before, he started renting them to people, and when they stopped paying, he didn’t kick them out. So now he’s got all this money tied up and he can’t make his payments, and he’s a school teacher so he doesn’t make enough in the first place to be paying for these things, and they went into foreclosure.
They sat on the market for over a year, and I drove by them every single day because my mom’s truck shop – I was still working there at the time – I had to drive by them at least twice a day.
So I finally called the agent and I was like, “Tell me what the deal is. I’ve never bought apartments, I don’t even know how to figure a formula on apartments.” So we started talking and it was all good, and then about six months later my boyfriend and I decided to go to apartment buying class. While we were there that weekend, at the bootcamp – it was a small bootcamp, there were about 10-15 people there – the agent called me and he was like, “Hey, we’re dropping the price on Monday of these apartments. You need to put an offer in.” So we got to use those 16 units during apartment class to run all of our numbers, and by the end of it everybody in the class was drooling over this deal. We got a contract on it on Monday, as soon as they dropped the price.
The thing about it was it’s on foreclosure, but a local community county bank was foreclosing on it, so they were keeping tenants in it. They had a local property manager – who actually knew what he was doing – running them, they were cash-flowing like crazy, but he was only advertising to nobody. They were not on the MLS… They just had a sign out front. I mean, it was like… Sometimes God says “And go buy this, now.”
Joe Fairless: The agent that told you about it – what was your relationship with him/her?
Whitney Nicely: Him, and I didn’t know him from [unintelligible [00:20:23].06] but he’s also an auctioneer in town here. I knew his name, but I just called him and I was just asking dumb new questions, because I didn’t have any idea about apartment complexes. But then by the end of that weekend, after I’d been to apartment buying school, I knew a little bit more (I thought I knew a little bit more) and we got it under contract. That was on the first of December, and closed actually in March… So we’ve had those puppies for two years.
Joe Fairless: How much did you buy them for and how much do they rent for in total?
Whitney Nicely: We got the 11-unit… I think it was like 225k, and they appraised at like 300k, or something. Then the 5-unit, we got it for like 140k, and they appraised for 175k-180k when we got them.
The best deal though was that triplex, because we found it on Craigslist. The people were living in Florida and they just didn’t wanna manage a property in Tennessee anymore. They were advertising it for 120k, we ended up closing on it for 92k, and it was cash-flowing immediately also. It didn’t have a property manager, I still manage that one actually myself.
Joe Fairless: Do you remember how much that rents for currently?
Whitney Nicely: The triplex, when we bought it, each unit was $450, and as people have left, we’ve come up… We’re at $550 now and I’ve got one unit open that I’m gonna try for $600…
Joe Fairless: Okay. So let’s just say $550 across the board, so $1,650, purchase price $92,000. Nice! And how much did you have to put into it to get it move-in ready, if any?
Whitney Nicely: Nothing. Apartments are never at a hundred percent, but they were rocking and rolling. On my triplex I haven’t been down a month, for any unit. As soon as I can move somebody out, I’ve got somebody else coming in the next month.
If not sooner [unintelligible [00:22:12].28]
Joe Fairless: You have quite an eclectic experience, and it’s been very… In certain interviews I just go with the flow and just kind of let it take us wherever, and I’m glad that I did that, because we’ve talked about a lot of great stuff that is unique, that’s for sure… From the land, to some other things.
Based on your experience, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Whitney Nicely: Keep going. If it’s a good deal, keep going. If it’s a bad deal, keep going. Don’t stop, keep going. My favorite Bible verse is Proverbs 31,16 which says that she goes to inspect a field, and she buys it. So ladies, go buy it. Men, go buy it. Figure it out, get a plan and go buy it.
Joe Fairless: I like it. Have you always been that way? I suspect you have, just from the little bit I’ve talked to you… If so, if you can separate yourself from that mentality for a second and pretend that you don’t have that mentality, what would you tell yourself, or what technique would you use to hone that mentality of kind of getting after it?
Whitney Nicely: Whenever I’m buying property, whether I’m buying land or a house or an apartment complex – and I teach all my students this – you have to find out what the seller’s pain is. If you can solve somebody’s problem, you’ll never run out of opportunities. Now, if you’re afraid to ask what their pain is, or if you keep finding people with no pain, you need to go find somebody else, because there’s plenty of people out here in the world with properties they don’t want, houses they don’t wanna take care of, and they just want somebody to come through and take this headache away from them, so they can sleep at night.
So as long as you’re actually helping people and not trying to be skeezy or slummy or anything like that, you’ll never run out of buying opportunities, and creative finance fits into that so perfectly.
Joe Fairless: Let’s talk a little bit about creative financing… What would be some tactical deal tips? I love the “find the motivation”, and now we’ve found someone who is motivated, or you’ve identified the pain points rather. What are some specific deal tips that you have as far as structuring the lease options, or anything like that that you wanna mention?
Whitney Nicely: Another thing that I tell all my students is it may not be that a lump sum cash payout will solve these people’s problems; it may be that the monthly payment is what they’re stressed over. If that’s what their pain is, then solve that pain. Also, when you go to look at a house, don’t be a one-hit-wonder. Don’t make one offer. Don’t solve just one thing and then be like “Poof! I’m gone.”
I want you to take a cash offer, I want you to take a five-year payoff offer, and a ten-year payoff offer. You may be surprised… I went in with the cash offer at one time, but I started talking about the other offers and I came out with an owner financed deal for 15 years with no money down, no payments for four months, and completely reasonable monthly payment. So be open for those, and never stop negotiating.
That deal I did last night… I asked my students, I was like “Okay, so I got this, I’ve got this money… I’ve got it for 12k. What if I ask my seller if he’ll take 5k? Would that be good? Because I’m aiming for 6k right now.” They were all like, “No, you’ve got it… You stay where you are, you’re good.” Well, I talked to my seller this morning and I got him at 3k. So don’t stop negotiating. He wanted money now, he didn’t want money later. I had $5,000 in my pocket, I gave him $3,000 of it, and now I don’t owe him another dime.
Keep going. Find out what they really want, give it to them, and make sure that you’re okay.
Joe Fairless: Just a quick question on your three offer strategy: cash offer, five-year payoff and ten-year payoff. I understand the cash offer, I also understand the five and ten-year payoff… So the cash offer would be less money to them, but faster, and then the five-year is more than the cash offer, but not as much as the ten-year – is that correct?
Whitney Nicely: Yes.
Joe Fairless: Okay.
Whitney Nicely: And when you talk about those, you can either form them so that you actually have them paid off in five years or ten years, or you can form it so that you’ve got a balloon payment due, and then when that five or ten years comes up and you’ve got a balloon, you’ll either be a millionaire and you can cash it out, you’ll have private money, partner buddies ready to help you cash him out, your tenant buyer will cash him out, or again, you can renegotiate and say “You know what? It was good, let’s do it again.”
Joe Fairless: Well, I’m enjoying this, as I mentioned already, Whitney. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?
Whitney Nicely: Sure, yeah. That’s not what we’ve been doing? [laughter]
Joe Fairless: Now it’s gonna go quickly. First though, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.
Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever book you’ve read?
Whitney Nicely: Salvatore Ferragamo’s The Shoemaker of Dreams.
Joe Fairless: Best ever deal you’ve done?
Whitney Nicely: The one last night… 9k on a 3k house. I’m pretty excited about that.
Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back.
Whitney Nicely: I [unintelligible [00:28:09].19] to my church and I sponsor the youth group trips – mission trips, fun trips, whatever.
Joe Fairless: What would you say is a mistake you’ve made on a particular deal?
Whitney Nicely: I paid $20,000 for one of my first houses with cash, my life savings, and we get to the closing table, the seller shook my hand and he said “Thank goodness you bought this, because no other investor in town offered me this much money.”
Joe Fairless: [laughs] What do you think everyone else was offering, now that you have the benefit of hindsight?
Whitney Nicely: I bet they weren’t giving him anything, because I didn’t realize… That’s how new I was when I started and how clueless I was — I didn’t realize it didn’t have a central heating air unit; it didn’t have heat and air when I bought it. It also had old wiring – we had to redo that, and it was on a hill, and a part of the hill had given way, and the foundation was screwed up and we couldn’t do anything to it until we put three sides of the foundation back on, to the tune of about $10,000, and my brother’s sweat equity.
Joe Fairless: So look out for wiring, hills and lack of central heat and air.
Whitney Nicely: Don’t wing it… For crying out loud, when you’re putting offers in on houses, have a formula. I like to use ARV x 70% – Repairs… That’s the most cash I can give you. And probably on that house – I was probably in that formula, but I hadn’t planned on putting 50k of my own money into the house just to be able to rent it. Get a plan, find somebody to help you, don’t just wing it. And those watch those TV shows, oh my gosh…!
Joe Fairless: [laughs] Whitney, where can the best ever listeners get in touch with you?
Whitney Nicely: WhitneyNicely.com. Also on Instagram @WhitneyBuysHouses, YouTube @WhitneyNicely, Facebook @WhitneyNicely. It’s either WhitneyNicely or WhitneyBuysHouses everywhere.
Joe Fairless: Sweet. Alright, that’s easy to remember, and Best Ever listeners, the link to Whitney’s website is in the show notes page.
Well, thanks for just sprinkling all sorts of goodness into this conversation, from how you got the half-acre of industrial land in 2013 and are cash-flowing on that $750/month at this point, and we’re in 2017 now, so that’s been a very good return. Then also the larger stuff that you’re doing with the 16 units (the 5-unit and the 11-unit), the story behind that, as well as the 100k-150k homes that you have, where you’re doing the lease options, and just breaking down that structure for us.
The rule that you have, where you always go in with three offers – the cash offer, the five-year payoff and the ten-year payoff, as well as the mistakes that you’ve made along the way, including that 20k house, and then lastly, the formula that you use, the ARV x 70% – Repairs = Cash you can give.
So thanks so much for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, Whitney, and we’ll talk to you soon!
Whitney Nicely: Thanks, Joe!
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