April 3, 2022

JF2770: Learning to Pivot: From Bankruptcy to 300 Units ft. Jeffrey Holst


Jeffrey Holst doesn’t have bad days. His commercial real estate journey has been an unconventional one, but today he’s focusing on living his best life, which includes pursuing his passion for value-add multifamily deals — and scuba diving! Here are some of the topics Jeffrey touched on in this episode: 

  • His move to Puerto Rico. Jeffrey says Puerto Rico has some challenges, but there are also many positive developments he is excited about. Plus, he wanted to scuba dive more, and there aren’t any oceans near his home in Tennessee.
  • His introduction to commercial real estate investing. A traumatic life event unexpectedly launched Jeffrey into the world of real estate investing. After being diagnosed with leukemia, he began planning for the worst-case scenario by buying assets he could leave to his wife. He saved up his bonuses for a year and bought a condo as his first deal, which he still owns today. 
  • How he structures joint venture apartment deals. Jeffrey explains:Say you and I wanted to buy a deal — I had a deal, you had some money. Rather than build a syndication around a 10-unit building, we’d find a way for us both to be active in the deal, and we’d create an LLC where we each own half. You would loan money to the LLC for the down payment, and then we would pay you interest on your money. You have to be a little careful that you don’t accidentally fall into syndication land … but as long as people stay active, you have a lot of flexibility in how you structure stuff.”
  • Investing in multiple asset classes. After his health scare, Jeffrey decided that he wanted to have more fun in his life — including his real estate investments. In an effort to keep things interesting, he’s branched out to invest in the multifamily, office, retail, industrial, and hospitality asset classes.
  • His favorite kind of deal. Jeffrey’s passion is value-add multifamily. There’s nothing he enjoys more than taking a building in poor condition and breathing life back into it. 
  • The biggest lesson he’s learned. Being willing to pivot. Things don’t always work out how you expect them to, so flexibility is key, Jeffrey says. That means planning — having multiple possible exits and multiple possible holding strategies. 
  • His Best Ever advice. Don’t have bad days. Good and bad things happen every day, Jeffrey says, but he makes a conscious choice each day to focus on the positive. 


Jeffrey Holst | Real Estate Background


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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to The Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I'm Slocomb Reed, I'm here with Jeff Holst. Jeff is joining us from Chattanooga, Tennessee. He's the founder of Old Fashioned Real Estate, they focus on value-add deals, including some deals that they JV. They have over 300 units in JV deals. Jeff is also a GP of an office building, a strip mall, and a 100,000 square foot industrial building. He's also an LP on two hotel deals. Jeff, can you start us off a little more about your background and what you're currently focused on?

Jeff Holst: Yeah, sure. The value-add multifamily, like the mid-size multifamily is kind of my sweet spot. I like to buy 20 to 50-unit buildings, mostly in Chattanooga, but I have some stuff in the Midwest as well. My real focus right now though, honestly, is just moving to Puerto Rico. I'm back and forth; I'm like half in Puerto Rico, half of Chattanooga. Happened to catch me in Tennessee right now but I'm itching to get back over to my island home.

Slocomb Reed: Are you spending half of the year plus one day, at least in Puerto Rico right now?

Jeff Holst: People ask me that a lot, and I'm actually the only person I know of in this situation. But I'm actually spending half of the year minus one day in Puerto Rico. I'm counting off my days to make sure I don't go over half a year, because unlike everyone else in the world, I don't pay tax. So I'm a real estate investor, I do a lot of bonus depreciation. Even though Puerto Rico has an insanely great tax system for a lot of people, 4% is still more than 0%.

Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. Why moved to Puerto Rico then? You just like the beach?

eff Holst: There's a lot of really cool stuff going on there. We did really well back in the last recession in Metro Detroit and in some of the more challenging markets. Puerto Rico has some challenges, but there are also a lot of really, really positive developments. Part of it is there's a lot of new money coming to the island, cryptocurrency folks, and stuff. I think there's just a ton of opportunity there. But yeah, also, I wanted to scuba dive more. We don't have any oceans in Tennessee, so... Puerto Rico.

Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. You said during the recession, you were doing a lot in Detroit. When did you first get into commercial real estate investing?

Jeff Holst: We started out with single families and things like that in Detroit in 2011-ish, and then we transitioned to multifamily in 2017. We started selling off those properties and 1031-ing to bigger deals. Our first one was a 12-unit, then we did a 19, then we did a 32, and then it was just off to the races from there. After we ran out of stuff to 1031, that's when we started JV-ing stuff.

Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. When you started JV-ing on these apartment deals, how are you structuring those? What was the joint venture?

Jeff Holst: It's very deal-specific. Sometimes it would be just like a couple of us each had some money and we would just put it in together. Other times it's this thing we named the sign eight investing, because it's the infinity symbol. We would do this deal where we basically create a new company. Slocomb, say you and I wanted to buy a deal, I had a deal, and you had some money. Rather than build a syndication around a 10-unit building - it's possible, but it's difficult - we figured out a way for us both to be active in the deal. What we'd do is we'd create an LLC, 50/50, I own half, you own half, and then you would loan money to the LLC for the down payment, and that LLC would pay you interest on your money. Generally, interest-only. So it's kind of like a combined to equity kind of thing. We did a lot of deals like that, where people had various percentages. You have to be a little careful that you don't accidentally fall into syndication land; you don't want to be selling securities without filing the proper exemptions, or having a securities license, or any of that kind of stuff. As long as people stay active, you have a lot of flexibility in how you structure stuff.

Slocomb Reed: Jeff, let's talk about how you stay careful not to fall into syndication land. I have active partners on a couple of apartment deals of the same size that you're talking about. Effectively, we're just both GPs, we're both equity partners; I run all of the operations, because that's my background, and my partners brought more of the money. Tell me how you're structuring those things. You're using some terms that I don't.

Jeff Holst: The thing about syndication is, it doesn't matter what you call it, but the securities definition is really clear. I might butcher this, because I'm not a securities attorney, but if you're investing with an expectation of profit through the efforts of someone else, it's a security; it doesn't matter how it's structured. It's a security if they're putting money out there and expecting to make a profit through your efforts exclusively. As long as someone is actively involved - as you said, they're a GP with you, like a co-GP - you're probably fine.

But if you took in 20 people, took 50,000 from each of them, went and bought a deal, and none of them really did anything except for put in money, that's a syndication; it doesn't matter how you say it is. When I say be careful, what I mean is, I'm not going to take 10 investors into a single deal. I'm going to make sure that that investor is having input into the decision-making. Now, I'm not talking about day-to-day, the decision making; that's the role of a property manager. If you're acting as a property manager, that's fine. I'm not even talking at the asset management level, because you can decide to hire an asset manager. That person can be Slocomb, it can be Jeff Holst, it doesn't matter. What's important is that they still have active participation in that deal, in some fashion. That's going to be different in every deal, what level of involvement there. It can be helping in underwriting, it can be helping to guarantee the loans... Obviously, that has a big part of it. Typically, you're not going to see that in a syndication. It's just the things like that. It's a balancing test. You've just got to make sure you're aware of where that line is and don't push it too far. By the way, also consult with an attorney; don't rely on what you heard on a podcast.

Slocomb Reed: Of course, and consult with a CPA.

Jeff Holst: Yeah, consult with all the professionals that you need to, to make sure that you're doing it correctly. I am an attorney, but I never did securities work. I have my own securities attorneys that I work with when I set this stuff up, real estate attorneys, CPAs, and all that kind of stuff.

Slocomb Reed: Yeah, and we consulted with attorneys when we set up our partnerships as well.

Jeff Holst: Yeah, it's probably completely fine how you have it set up.

Slocomb Reed: Correct me where I'm wrong, Jeff... This was at least my thinking when I was setting up my partnerships. One of the reasons to avoid syndication is that the deals that we were buying were simply too small to justify the costs involved in the formation of the syndication, the legal fees, the filing with the SEC... When you're talking about a 10-unit in Detroit or Chattanooga, Tennessee - I don't know what your values are, but some stuff is being listed by brokers right now at 65,000-70,000 a door in that space; class C buildings, by age and condition. If you're talking about a $750,000 building, it just doesn't make any sense to go through the legal hassle and the cost of registering that with the SEC, and doing it the right way through attorneys.

Jeff Holst: Completely agree. And that's what I said. We make sure that we're complying with securities law, we're purposely avoiding the possibility of creating a security inadvertently. Because what you want to do is if you're going to do it, you want to go through the cost of doing it correctly. You want to have your PPMs and your registrations; really, it's just notice filings. If you have the right exemptions, it's just about putting the SEC on notice that that's what you're doing, and then making sure your investors have all the proper disclosures and stuff. But that stuff does cost time and money. If you need $200,000 to do a deal, it's not worth doing. But that's 700...

Slocomb Reed: [unintelligible 00:10:58.15]

Jeff Holst: Yeah, you need $200,000-$300,000 to do to deal, and some bank financing. That's never going to work for a syndication. But we have done some where we've raised small numbers. One of the first syndications we did went through the whole process. We only raised $350,000, or $340,000, or something like that. And it worked out fine, but that was a very rich deal; it was about creating a model that we could repeat for our investors, so we wanted to start out with a small one intentionally. And it worked out really well, we exited that deal, everyone doubled their money in three years, and everyone's happy. Those people of course reinvested that money again with us, or most of them did anyway.

Slocomb Reed: I want to stay on this for just a moment longer before we break into any other conversations, Jeff. You said you started in Detroit, did you live in Detroit at the time, or did you live in Chattanooga?

Jeff Holst: No. I actually lived in Grand Rapids, Michigan and then I moved to Chattanooga. Once I've moved here is when I started investing in Detroit. I guess I'm weird. In fairness, I went through a pretty traumatic life event. I got diagnosed with leukemia, I was a bankruptcy attorney, and that actually drove me into personal bankruptcy. So in 2010, I filed for bankruptcy and I took a job in Chattanooga. I thought I was going to die, so I was like, "I need to buy some assets to make sure that my wife's okay if I die." That was my whole goal. Fortunately, I started at the right time, because pretty much anything you bought in 2010 you did really well with if you held it until now. In fact, the first deal I did, I still owned; it was a $30,000 condo that we bought for cash. I had no credit, so I had to figure out a way to do this, and so I saved up my bonuses for a year and bought a condo. It worked out pretty well, because the thing is probably worth 150,000. I bought it with a partner, so I only had to put in $15,000 or something. We still have it and it rents out consistently so... It could be worse.

Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. Specific to the 20 to 50-unit deals that you're buying right now, where are they? Are they all in Chattanooga?

Jeff Holst: Yes. We have a few deals in Michigan still. I think I have about 100 units up there in that size.

Slocomb Reed: Are you currently buying up there?

Jeff Holst: I'm looking at deals, I haven't bought anything in a while. Most of this stuff is within 30 miles of Chattanooga. I am looking at a couple of other markets too, but I haven't pulled the trigger on those.

Slocomb Reed: When I'm talking to my real estate investor and apartment investor friends here in Cincinnati, Ohio, I'm talking to brokers, and I'm talking to my commercial mortgage broker, one of the things that come up very often in conversation and one of the reasons that a lot of syndicators are not finding a lot of success, are not finding a lot of deals in Cincinnati, is because Cincinnati has an older and smaller apartment inventory by comparison to the metros that are exciting for apartment syndicators. Very few of the buildings here were built in or since the 1990s. More likely to find 1890s than 1990s in Cincinnati, in fact. And you're more likely to find poor families all over the place. But the 12-unit building where it's three floors of four apartments, one apartment might be the utility room, laundry room, but it's the same brick structure everywhere. That's a lot of our apartments in Cincinnati is those buildings; my 24-unit is two twelves.

So Cincinnati is a great cash flow market, it is a growing market, and most of our apartments are not syndication size. So speaking specifically to the Best Ever listeners who find themselves in markets like ours, where the good apartment deals that will allow them to scale their portfolio will not allow them to syndicate, what are your recommendations for how those people partner with others to take advantage of OPM, other people's money, and get invested in deals that don't make sense to syndicate because they're too small?

Jeff Holst: That's always a trick. You have to understand what those potential partners are looking for, because you have to skirt that line if you're not syndicating. You've got to know what they want, you've got to really get a good understanding of what it is that they're looking for, and then you've got to structure the deal that divides up the debt-equity and cash flow in a way that works for everyone. As I said, the strategy I outlined sort of briefly, where we start a new company and then one person loans money to that company, and the person or partner maybe finds the deal and does a little bit more on the management side - that can work. That's a strategy that I've used in Chattanooga, which we have a similar problem here. There are some big deals here, 150-unit buildings and new construction, because we have a lot of growth, but there are a lot more 20-unit buildings than there are 100-unit buildings. Actually, I kind of like that, because in a way, it creates an opportunity. You said you're in a cash flow market; well, we are, too. We're in a cash flow and appreciation market somewhere between probably where you are in say Phoenix or something that's almost all appreciation now.

When you're looking at a deal like that, you have an opportunity to do very, very well, and you can structure deals to do value-add things where you can refinance in 18 months and pull your money out. That's one way to scale too, and that's what we've been doing the last few years. We're refinancing, pulling out the money, and then just using that as a down payment on the next one. Once you get to a certain scale, it becomes quite a bit easier, but you've got to just be flexible and figure out a way to do it. Because 20% of a deal is better than 0% of a deal; if you can make it work and you end up with a chunk of it, it's worth doing.

Slocomb Reed: I did a deal similar to that this past year, Jeff, where 20% of a deal is better than no deal. It wasn't necessarily that I bought on one partner and that partner lent all the money to the partnership. The way that we structured it was effectively -- I knew his cash flow expectations and I knew that after the value-add process with this 26-unit was complete, the property would far exceed his cash flow needs. What we did was he took 75% ownership, I took 25% ownership, but he brought 85% of the money, and I only brought 15%. So he was hitting his cash flow numbers; my cash flow numbers are much sweeter, though. But to your point, Jeff, I'm the one who found the deal, negotiated the deal, and I'm the one executing the plan.

Jeff Holst: Yeah, we're doing a deal right now with one of my partners where we had some 1031 money, he had a ,deal and we're 1031-ing in, and we're doing a TIC. He's getting 15% of the deal, he's putting none of the money in, and we're getting 85%. I'm fine with that; he's going to be operating a lot of it. Obviously, we're going to be paying attention when we own 85% of it, but effectively, it's a great deal for both of us. He's getting a nice chunk of a 40-unit building, and not putting any money in; we'll get our money back at a refinance or sale point out of the capital account. But then we're dividing everything at 85/15.

Slocomb Reed: Jeff, you said you're still buying apartments, but it sounds like since you got into the apartment game, you've basically touched on every single other commercial asset class with at least one or two deals. You've got an office building, a strip mall, a big industrial building, you're an LP on some hotel deals... What's got you diving into all of those different niches?

Jeff Holst: Well, listen, I've been very fortunate the last few years. And after I went through that health-scare and thought I was going to die - well, I needed to do fun things and I need to craft a life that's amazing. It's a big goal of mine, and I've done that, I've got to climb Kilimanjaro; I went to Antarctica last month.

Slocomb Reed: Wow.

Jeff Holst: Which is amazing, and it's a great place to go. But I want to do interesting things; I'd rather not just do the same thing over and over again, so I just try different stuff, and see what works. I like making money, and those were good opportunities. In fact, the office deal -- this is my second office, but the one that I'm sitting in right now, we bought this building and did almost like a WeWork idea. Renting out individual offices downstairs, and then we took the top floor; it's like house hacking our own office, so we have our free office space as a result of that. I just love that stuff, it's just fun.

Break: [00:18:56] - [00:20:43]

Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, I have to hijack the podcast for a moment, because I'm literally doing the exact same thing. I'm almost done renovating and furnishing, and I'm about to advertise. Let me ask, Jeff, for my own office hack... It's a 4000 square foot building, it's going to have six private offices, one of them mine, five of them rented, and then a co-working component outside of that, with shared day desks and shared day offices and lounge space. How did you attract people to lease your private offices and to lease your co-working space?

Jeff Holst: Yeah, it's been harder than I thought it would be actually, just so you know. We've actually just sort of floated it. We put it on Facebook Marketplace and stuff, because you can't do like the normal, like stick it up on apartments.com, syndicate it out to all the different sites, kind of rental strategy. Facebook Marketplace has actually been really good for it.

Slocomb Reed: That's good to hear.

Jeff Holst: Yeah. And then also Craigslist, we got a little bit off of that too. But a lot of them have just been like word of mouth. You go to a networking event, and then -- of course, we have 14 offices in our building, 14 single offices, then we have one office that's quite a bit larger that has two units, and that's the space we took for ourselves, so just myself and my partner. And then we have a little mini-conference room. But we have 1,600 square feet for ourselves and then the other people have whatever space they have, 300-400 square feet per office, something like that. We'll go to a networking event and I'll say, "Hey, you need an office? I can rent you a place really cheap and it includes all of your utilities."

Our price point is cheap. I mean, it's like $450 a month or something, for an office with all your utilities. We've just been trying to fill it up with other real estate investors that just want a home base, and just create almost like a real estate center. We call it the Old Fashioned Real Estate Center, and just think we can all hang out here and synergize and stuff like that.

Slocomb Reed: That's awesome. My situation is similar. I'm a little behind you operationally, just because I haven't actually officially launched yet. Again, I'm sure there are Best Ever listeners who are doing this and getting value from this conversation, but also, they all need to know that this kind of thing is available. If you're active in the real estate space, this is your career, this is a fun thing to do. As a real estate agent, focused on working with investors, I just got sick of how many of my clients bought office hacks, how many I found for them and how I wasn't doing it personally. I was like "Man, I've got to have one of these." What I found was an old building, it's in my neighborhood, it's on the main road, just half a block away from the trendy coffee shops, restaurants, bars, etc offshore parking.

Jeff Holst: Perfect.

Slocomb Reed: Yeah. I bought it as a residential three family, but the zoning was office limited, allowing for all of my needed uses. So I got on a 30-year fixed rate debt as a family building and then converted it. For someone like you and me, like you were saying about needing to enjoy yourself, real estate becomes a hobby as well as a career. It's fun. But my plan is to use Facebook Marketplace. I live in the neighborhood, I'm in the neighborhood Facebook group as well as the Facebook Marketplace. My clients who do this have told me that Craigslist has actually recently become really viable for finding office tenants, which is good to hear, because I'll need that. And yeah, I have a toddler at home, so not working from home is very helpful.

Jeff Holst: Yeah, that's my thought too. Like I'm five minutes from my house in Tennessee here; now I'm moving to Puerto Rico, so the office is less useful. But you know how long you can keep an office you don't have to pay for? Pretty much forever. I can have a space here when I'm in town; and when I'm not in town, I don't worry about it, because it doesn't cost me that much. It pays for itself and it builds equity over time. Actually, we got a really good deal on ours too, we fixed it up, and now we're getting ready to refinance it, pull some cash out. I watched it be like net positive on it all around, which would be fantastic... But it's really great.

The other thing I would tell the Best Ever listeners is that if you're in the market for an office in Cincinnati, it sounds like there might be one available, and you should jump in there, [unintelligible 00:24:39]. But same in Chattanooga, we have a few spaces left, so feel free to reach out. The point is, this stuff exists everywhere, because we're not the only people doing it. And the reason I found this building that we're in now, is because I was looking for a single office to work out of my house. Because once COVID hit, I was like, "Okay, cool. Then I can do everything on Zoom." But I really like to just have my own space that's not in my basement.

That's where everyone was working, in their basement, or guest bedroom, or something, for a year and a half. Now that we can get out and about, having not to go back to your traditional job, but having your own little space where you can have a client or a customer come if you want, it's awesome.

Slocomb Reed: And also taking advantage of the shift in the office market now. Bringing this back to a commercial real estate investing conversation, Jeff, one of the major shifts that we're seeing in office space is major companies, but also smaller companies, moving away from the central hub downtown large offices to smaller satellite offices. With more people working from home, my office is in my neighborhood. My neighborhood is full of white-collar professionals working from home. A lot of them have kids, and a lot of them just need a place to crash, that's close to home, that can get them out of the house that's affordable.

This is a viable business strategy, it's not just a hobby/office hack thing. There's some serious cashflow potential in this too if you find the right deal if you're an active operator, Best Ever listeners, and you're looking for creative opportunities for cash flow that looking into the zoning in the area where you live or in an area of your city that is redeveloping. Finding the areas of town that are zoned for offices or finding an office building like Jeff is describing or like I'm describing, you can find some hidden gem, serious cash flow doing what we're doing.

Jeff Holst: Yeah, it's been great for us.

Slocomb Reed: Question Jeff - out of all of the deals that you've done and getting in all the different niches within commercial real estate, which one's been the funnest, outside of your office?

Jeff Holst: I really love value-add multifamily. I love taking a building that's in really poor condition... And we might even over improve a little bit, granite, redoing cabinets, and replacing all the appliances and stuff like that. What we're doing is we're creating quality housing; we're moving C to B, and I love doing that. To me, that's probably the most fun, is taking a building that really needs to be brought back to life and bringing it back to life. But honestly, I love it all. Now I'm thinking about actually building a safari lodge in Tanzania and I'm looking at some Airbnb deals in Puerto Rico. We bought this building last year, that used to be a barracks for World War II generals and stuff. It's down here in Georgia right off the Civil War battlefield. It's like a 100-year-old building, and like MacArthur slept in one of the bedrooms... It's just so cool to be attached to all that stuff, it's just amazing.

Slocomb Reed: Jeff, before we transition to the last segment of this show, I do want to say that it's very valuable to be hearing from your perspective. Talking specifically about traumatic life events, leukemia, using your words, thinking that you're going to die, and knowing that you need to leave assets for your family, but also wanting to have fun while you're doing it... That's why I asked that question; it's great to hear that you're making a living doing these things. It's not just a hobby and it's not just what you do outside of the day job. It is the day job, and you've found a way to keep it fun and to keep it profitable. Are you ready for our Best Ever lightning round, Jeff?

Jeff Holst: I'm ready.

Slocomb Reed: Awesome. What is your Best Ever way to give back?

Jeff Holst: What I really love to do is I love to help people live the best version of their lives. We created a podcast and a Facebook group and all this stuff, where we just lean into that and we just interview people doing exciting things in their life to inspire people and give them ideas about it. I spent a lot of time just doing a lot of social stuff that we don't monetize. It's just, we're out there sharing positivity. I have this life philosophy about not having bad days, so I haven't had a bad day since I was 17. I love to teach people how to do that, that's one of my favorite things in the world.

Slocomb Reed: Awesome. What is the Best Ever book you recently read?

Jeff Holst: I read so many books, they're all great. I love a lot of things. Right now, the one that jumps out to me is actually The Creature from Jekyll Island. I read that a few months ago, and this book is about the Federal Reserve, and it is terrifying and fascinating at the same time. If you haven't read it, you should check that one out.

Slocomb Reed: That's a really interesting book, Jeff. Very interesting, especially right now, and especially considering the federal government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic. For those of you who have read Jekyll Island, and for those of you who are interested in reading Jekyll Island because you're hearing about it recently and how timely it is to read it right now, I will just say, one political caveat... Keep in mind that both the Trump and Biden administrations have basically had very similar responses to the COVID pandemic. When you realize that, that's going to further the message of The Creature from Jekyll Island, that this isn't a Republican or Democrat thing, this is an American federal government thing that you're reading about. What is the Best Ever lesson you've learned from a particular deal, Jeff?

Jeff Holst: Great question. I think it's just about being willing to pivot. Sometimes you have an idea of how something's going to work out, and then it's not working out that way, and then you have to be able to be flexible. It might be -- in this market it's been easy, because the bailout has been [unintelligible 00:30:06.12] But I think there are times when that's not going to be available, so you want to have multiple possible exits and multiple possible holding strategies, because you just don't know. You might be building an Airbnb and they might change the regulation, so you want to underwrite it, "Well, what if I can't Airbnb it? What does that look like?" Things like that.

Slocomb Reed: What is your Best Ever advice?

Jeff Holst: Don't have bad days; just give them up if they're bad. And it's a lot easier if you don't have them. I know that sounds silly, but it's really true. Good and bad stuff happens to everyone every day. Just choose to focus on the positive stuff. When I got diagnosed with leukemia, people were like, "Oh, I bet today's a bad day." I was like, "Not really. Most of the day was pretty good." That moment wasn't my favorite moment of the day. But in retrospect, even though that was maybe a little delusional at the time, it probably was one of the best days of my life, because it got me on this journey that I'm on now, where I get to talk to you. I wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for that.

Slocomb Reed: We're grateful for your perspective, Jeff, for sure. Where can people get in touch with you?

Jeff Holst: I'm all over the place. If they just Google Jeffrey Holst, they'll find me. But probably the Last Life Ever Facebook group is the best place to reach out to me. Last Life Ever is just about living the best version of your life and I love to hang out there and interact with people.

Slocomb Reed: Awesome. Well, Best Ever listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you've gotten value from this episode, please do subscribe to the podcast, leave us a five-star review, and share this episode with Jeff Holst with a friend so that we can add value to them too. Thank you and have the Best Ever day.

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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.

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