February 6, 2022
Joe Fairless

JF2714: Survive Any Market Cycle: 4 Ways to Diversify Your Assets ft. David McAlvany


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What if you could minimize the risks to your investments? In this episode, David McAlvany, CEO of the mobile app Vaulted, shares why diversifying your assets with precious metals can provide stability during market dips, rising interest rates, inflation, and more. 

David McAlvany | Real Estate Background

  • CEO of the McAlvany Financial Group which consists of McAlvany ICA (precious metals advisory firm), McAlvany Wealth Management (an SEC-registered investment advisor), and Vaulted (mobile app for investing in allocated and deliverable physical gold).
  • A key pillar of McAlvany Wealth Management’s strategy is centered around hard assets and global real estate.
  • Based in: Durango, CO
  • Say hi to him at: https://vaulted.com/ | https://davidmcalvany.com/ | https://mwealthm.com/

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TRANSCRIPTION

Ash Patel: Hello Best Ever listeners. Welcome to The Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Ash Patel and I’m with today’s guest, David McAlvany. David is joining us from Durango, Colorado. He is the CEO of McAlvany Financial Group, which is involved in wealth management and global real estate, as well as various other assets. David, thank you for joining us and how are you today?

David McAlvany: Thanks for having me. I’m doing great. Looking forward to our conversation. I hope we can cover all the ground that you want to cover.

Ash Patel: Let’s get started. David, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?

David McAlvany: Yeah. Our family business comes into its 50th year this year. We started in precious metals, specifically gold and silver, in 1972. So we have seen similar economic environments and financial market environments to what we have today. In fact, a part of the reason we exist today is because there were significant inflationary issues on investors’ minds in the late ’60s and early ’70s. Five decades later, we’re still doing that, helping investors who want to own physical/tangible assets.

In 2008, I launched our asset management company which focuses, in a complementary way, on hard assets, but this time in publicly traded markets, specifically in real estate, which would be in the form of real estate investment trusts, in infrastructure, in global natural resources, and then precious metals, but more of a producers as opposed to the physical product itself, which our sister company handles.

Ash Patel: With the economic cycle that we’re heading into now, what dissimilarities do you see versus previous inflationary times?

David McAlvany: What dissimilarities do I see? Some of the inflationary pressures obviously will recede; it depends on the length of this pandemic/endemic with COVID. They are clearly pressures in China, with Chinese manufacturing. Whether it is rare earth minerals that are in a hard-to-find situation, or semiconductors which continue to constrain some of our manufacturing here in the United States, because we don’t sufficiently provide our own… These are things that do have inflationary pressures which will recede. The thing that I don’t think will recede will be monetary policy, which today we’re looking at changes in monetary policy, and the idea is that Jerome Powell is going to raise rates, we’re going to see an increase in rates… I would just tell you that there’s so much debt in the system, roughly $30 trillion, that to raise rates is highly consequential. So being able to talk about raising rates and actually following through is quite different.

Another dissimilarity is in the 1970s, as we went from the era of Arthur Burns to Paul Volcker, Volcker got to raise rates and crush inflation. We were working off a very low level of debt, private, corporate, governmental. You can’t do that, you don’t have the same latitude, you don’t have the same levers to pull in terms of monetary policy today as you did then.

Ash Patel: Can you dive into that a little bit deeper, where — because of the amount of debt that we have, what’s the impact of raising rates significantly?

David McAlvany: You’re really talking about a cash flow issue. If you’re talking about corporate entities who have a lot of debt on the balance sheet, as they recycle their debt and have to renew it, it’s going to be at higher rates, so that impacts their cash flow pretty significantly. You tend to see stocks perform very well in a declining interest rate environment, and you tend to see stocks suffer, again, because the cost of capital goes up, in an increasing interest rate environment. So there’s an impact to corporations managing debt maturities, there’s also an impact on the government itself, at two different levels. Number one, they have to refinance their debt too, and at higher rates, it’s a larger line item. Interest in principal payments becomes a larger line item in the national budget.

If you look at the interest in principal payments today, it’s less than 7% of our total budget. But you don’t have to add very many percentage points in terms of an increase in interest rates for that to be 20%, of all government spending, just to pay interest in principle. We have a very leveraged balance sheet as a country, and an increase in interest rates takes that single line item, interest in principle — and again, from a low single-digit, it could be 25% in very short order, of our total governmental expenses. And that has huge implications.

Ash Patel: David, we keep hearing about all the money on the sidelines. What will it do to all the money on the sidelines?

David McAlvany: That’s a good question. All the money in the sidelines – it depends on the atmosphere that you’re in. Money on the sidelines in a fear-based environment stays on the sidelines. The Plaza Hotel came for sale in the 1930s and no one was willing to buy it, even though the price asked was only equivalent to the revenue generated by the bar and restaurant, not just the hotel. There’s plenty of money on the sidelines, but no one would put that capital to work because they were scared out of their minds. Money on the sidelines in a rising market means that you’re going to rise further, money on the sidelines in a declining market means that you’re going to have money on the sidelines. Just because liquidity exists doesn’t mean liquidity is flowing.

Ash Patel: What advice would you give to people that are going all-in on real estate, taking on a lot of leverage?

David McAlvany: I think it’s ill-advised, for a couple of reasons. You have an asset class that, like a bond, is sensitive to interest rates. We’ve been through a good long cycle of declining interest rates. Ash, when did interest rates start to decline?

Ash Patel: I would say 2008…

David McAlvany: 1982. This has been a huge stretch where interest rates have come down and stocks have gone in a beautiful direction for our entire lifetime; bonds have gone in a beautiful direction our entire lifetime; real estate has gone in a beautiful direction our entire lifetime. But the average interest rate cycle is somewhere between 22 and 36 years here in the United States. What had started at 82 – we’re already well past the longest interest rate cycle we’ve ever had, implying that at virtually zero, we have only up to go in terms of interest rates. And you’re talking about an asset class that is price-sensitive to a rise in rates. So if you are leveraged in an asset class that has downside potential as rates increase, I think that’s a dangerous position to be in. Are there exceptions to that? Of course, there are. Location, location, location is always going to be the mantra and a true issue as it relates to real estate.

Is there always going to be a place to make money in real estate? Yes. But I think you’re talking about the difference between a professional and a novice. If you are counting on the environment to remain the same in support of real estate trajectories continuing to go higher – again, the history of interest rates would argue otherwise.

Ash Patel: Alright. We real estate guys live in this bubble where all of our news is real estate-centric, our social media is real estate-centric, and all you see right now is with inflation coming – how do you battle that? Go out and buy more real estate, borrow more money. So give people a little bit of a dose of reality on the drawbacks of taking on that large amount of debt. Granted, you’re locked in for a long period of time, but I don’t think many of us realize the pressure on the asset price itself. Can you explain that?

David McAlvany: Well, you guys know about cap rates far more than I do. But when cap rates are compressed more, and more, and more, another way of looking at that is the risk in the asset is also increasing at the same time. There’s not a lot of room for error if you’re dealing with a cap rate of three, or four. There’s a lot of room for error if you’re talking about a 12 ca; there’s a lot more room for error. At this point, things have to work out; in a compressed cap rate environment, things have to work just right. I’m not a negative neutron, but I look around and I say “If I could have cash or a cash equivalent and be in a position to put money to work in a distressed environment, that would be pretty compelling to me.” Because I think there’s a lot of people in the real estate world who are way over-leveraged. And if there is any change at all, either in the economy or in the direction of interest rates, you’re going to find very leveraged players, all of a sudden, in real trouble.

We’ve had, perhaps, a great demonstration of this with a Chinese development company – $300 billion in debt; Evergrande, they’re one of the top 10 real estate developers in China. Now, all of a sudden, things begin to change and there are not as many people buying apartments as there were before, so volumes changed, just at the margins. And because they had so much debt, now all of a sudden, they’re in a real bind.

Ash Patel: Underwriting, in the perfect world – how do they anticipate what’s on the horizon? Do they have their exit cap rate one or two points higher than what they’re buying it at?

David McAlvany: That’s a good question. I think a part of the question that I like the most is when you’re buying something, be clear on what your exit strategy is. I think that’s a healthy thing to keep in mind. Again, for me, it comes back to a compressed cap rate. If you are buying something that’s at a compressed level, what possibly is your exit strategy, what possibly exists?

Ash Patel: I’ve seen a lot of proforma’s where they’re compressed even more upon sale.

David McAlvany: Right. But see, if you move away from the real estate crowd, on Wall Street we call that the greater fool theory of investing. You may come in with $10 million and all you’re hoping for is that somebody comes in with 15. But if you paid too much for an asset, what you’re really hoping, even though you paid too much, is that someone comes in and pays even more on the “too much” side effects. So you’re just banking on it. What’s your exit strategy? Is the best exit strategy counting on a continuation of market insanity? I don’t know.

Ash Patel: David, how do you advise people? Some of the younger guys and girls that have only seen good times in their life, people that graduated high school in maybe 2009 or 2010 and have had a great run (graduated college) and just all they’ve seen is an incredible booming economy. How do you bring them a dose of reality on what could happen?

David McAlvany: We spend hours every day looking at market history, looking at trends, and trying to extrapolate nuggets of important data from the past that would be relevant in the present. And I think for anyone who wants to look at where we’re at, it’s really important that you start looking at cycles, it’s really important that you understand the nature of interest rates, one of the prime drivers of real estate values. But more than that, prime drivers of all asset classes. Would it surprise you to hear that as of 2016, we’re only marginally above these levels? But as of 16, interest rates hit a 5000-year low.

Ash Patel: That is very surprising.

David McAlvany: Yeah. So with that in mind, you could also say that any asset that is interest rate-sensitive and does well on the basis of low rates is also the equivalent of a 5000 year high. I would just ask any investor, whether it’s real estate or anything else, where do you make money? When you sell something or when you buy it?

Ash Patel: It’s really when you buy it.

David McAlvany: Buy right. So if we make the case that we’re somewhere close to the highest values ever, because the cost of capital is the lowest in 5000 years, you’d have to argue that you can’t possibly buy it right. And that’s a broad statement about an asset class in general. There’ll be exceptions where the details percolate to the top, and whether it’s a distressed deal, or… There’s always an opportunity; that makes sense. But in general, you’d say, “You should look at history, know where you’re at in the continuum, and recognize that this is not a market that is going to help you make money.”

It’s no different in stocks. If you look at current price-to-earnings ratios, if you look at price-to-sales ratios, the price-to-sales ratio in the S&P 500 is the highest it’s ever been in all of US stock market history. We blew out the 2008 levels, we blew out the 2000 levels, we blew out the bull market levels of 1968, we’ve blown out the levels that we saw in 1928 and 29 before the market rolled over. You could look at stocks, my gosh, you are paying through the nose to own these companies.

Ash Patel: I’d like to pose a couple of different scenarios to you. Let’s take the real estate investor syndicator who’s really leveraged, taking on a lot of other people’s funds as well, and interest rates go up a point. Now they realize their proforma sales cap rate is not going to happen; they’re underwater. How does somebody like that get right?

David McAlvany: You get right before you get there, and you get on the hook now, you get on that immediately, because you have to make sure that your portfolio is lightened up and you’re a lot more liquid. I remember that my dad sat with one of our clients, a reasonably large investor; not a syndicator, but he probably had 50 properties, single-family homes, up in Oregon. This is 2005 or 2006. He sat down and did a consultation with my dad who was in the business at the time. He said, “What do you think I should do?” My dad said, “I’m going to recommend something that sounds crazy to you, but I’m going to recommend that you sell 100% of your real estate portfolio.” He’s like, “This is my cash flow, this is where I’ve made my fortune. What are you talking about?” He went home, thought about it over the weekend, called my dad, and said “I’m putting for sale signs on all the properties.” That was 2006; it took him about two years to get liquid.

The banks knew that he owned those properties, and in 2009 and 10, they came to him and said, “Are you interested in any of your properties? This one’s in foreclosure, this one you can buy from us in a short sale.” And he’s like, “Wait a minute. So I got liquid in advance of a significant decline in real estate, and now I get to own the entire portfolio for cash, plus another 20 or 30 properties on top of that, for cash?” So he went from being leveraged to unleveraged and owning a higher percentage — sometimes the best offense is a good defense is what I’m saying, Ash. It’s not as if you say “Well, that’s just silly. The sky is falling.” Somebody is always betting on the downside. Yeah, there’s a rain cloud somewhere, even on a blue-sky day. I’m really not saying just focus on the negative; what I’m saying is be strategic in the way that you approach the markets and recognize the markets don’t care about you, the markets don’t care about your long-term goals or ambitions. The markets just do what they do. And if there are trends that you can take advantage of… In this case, I think you’ve got a lot of over-leveraged players. And I would say, at this point, if you’re over-leveraged in real estate, and Jerome Powell does follow through, March, April, May, June, between now and the end of the year, Goldman Sachs says we’re raising interest rates four times this year… I personally don’t believe they can do that without unhinging the economy, because of our debt structures. But if they follow through, you’re talking about a 100 basis point increase, to your point. Now, how does that person get out? Well, it’s a lot harder to get out in December than it is now. And this is not a negative commentary on real estate; this is “How do I buy more of what I own, on better terms?” That’s what I’m talking about.

Ash Patel: So for somebody who’s not exposed to real estate today, is there a hedge knowing that the market is going to be negative in terms of real estate pricing?

David McAlvany: Yeah, is there a hedge…? Not a very good one, honestly. Not a very good one. That has a direct one-to-one correlation with real estate.

Ash Patel: How can you benefit financially if you know that prices are going to go down?

David McAlvany: What I would say is by positioning in cash and being able to do that, you give yourself optionality, you give yourself the ability to have leveraged purchasing power in the future. Positioning in cash now is the opportunity to buy a lot more later. What I would say is that in this environment of desperate monetary policies and governments who are willing to spend anything to keep people happy… Keep in mind, COVID reintroduced the world — this is something that’s very different. We haven’t seen this since the 1960s and ’70s. Governments around the world rediscovered that it’s really fun to put money in people’s pockets. It makes you very, very popular as a politician. “Ash, I’m sending you $10,000. What do you think of me today? Don’t forget to vote in November.”

So we’ve rediscovered the power of the purse. This is a fiscal policy through COVID. We’ve got build back better, and there’ll be a dozen other things over the next decade which are huge trillion-dollar spends. That means that your cash is at risk too, because inflation is here to stay. Even the supply chain issues go away when we sort out who we’re buying our microchips from; that’ll all sort itself out. But what’s not going away is the government spending money that they don’t have, and that having an inflationary impact. We went from sub 2% inflation to now the official CPI is 7%. I’m saying move to cash. How can I in good conscience say “move to cash,” when it’s a guaranteed loss of 7% sitting in the bank? Well, what I would say is that’s why we launched our vaulted program. Our vaulted program is a cash equivalent, it’s meant to substitute for a bank or savings account, but it’s denominated in ounces, held with the Royal Canadian Mint in Ottawa. On your smartphone, on your computer platform, if you go to the app store and look at Vaulted, or go online to vaulted.com, it’s a brilliant program. It’s a cash equivalency, very compressed cost to buy and to sell, instant liquidity, and it’s designed to be what gold was for 5,000 years. Not a commodity that you speculate on prices up and down, it’s the basis of a monetary system. And if we’re not going to be on a gold standard as a country, you can put yourself on your own gold standard. Insulate yourself from the cost of inflation by having a part of your liquidity in something that protects you from the ravages of inflation.

So yes, you want to reduce your market risk in real estate, yes, you want to have some exposure to cash, or I would say a cash equivalent, and you can get that in ounces. Vaulted is a great outlet. There are others, I’m sure too, but that would be the way I would solve the inflation problem and the overexposure problem to real estate.

I’m a huge bull in real estate. I own real estate personally, I invest in real estate, I am dying to get out of ounces, and into more cash-flowing real estate. So this is not the gold guy who is anti-real estate, I’m pro real estate; I just want to own more of it on the best terms possible. I think that given the market structure and the fever pitch speculation that we’ve seen in cryptocurrencies, in non-fungible tokens, in meme stocks – you’ve got money flowing, and people are excited, and people are making money, and it’s in real estate, and it’s in every asset class. Ash, I just don’t think this ends well. The good news is, it ends really well for someone who’s like, “Yeah, I think I’m just going to take a few of my marbles out of the game, and I’ll put them right back in… But instead of three marbles buy three things, I want to see three marbles buy nine things.” Increase your purchasing power, let the market come to you; make money on the buy side, not when you sell.

Break: [00:22:38][00:24:48]

Ash Patel: David, you’ve made a really compelling argument about what’s on the horizon. Why would you not take your father’s advice and sell all your real estate now?

David McAlvany: A couple of things. Number one, my real estate is not leveraged; and number two, I’ve got really good visibility on the rents. So it’s a very strong position to be in. I remember one of our other clients who at one point had close to 1,000 doors in downtown San Francisco. He leapfrogged from 500 to about 1,000 in one of the many economic downturns we’ve had in the last 60 to 70 years. This is a guy who’s dead now; he retired to Spokane, made a ton of money building houses in the 1930s, made a ton of money in the poultry business in California in the 1950s and ’60s, built a real estate empire in the ’70s and ’80s… And what he told me about what he built in terms of a real estate empire in San Francisco — not a bad place to own 1000 doors, I think — is that when the market turned down, he had zero debt. Everybody around him was scrambling to make payments, while he just lowered his rent 30% and stayed 100% of capacity.

Meanwhile, building A, B, and C across the street are going back to the bank. That’s how he jumped from 500 to 1,000 doors pretty quick. He had staying power, he had the ability to lower his rents to whatever to keep it 100% full, which put him in a huge position of strength. His kids always looked back and were like, “Dad, teach us how you made money in real estate. This is amazing.” My last conversation with him was in 2002. Gold was at about $400 an ounce, it’s $1,800 today. He said “My kids will never get it. It’s not about real estate, it’s about understanding value. It’s about buying things right.” What he was doing – he actually moved almost 100% of his money into gold at the time.

Ash Patel: How does gold compete with NFT’s, meme stocks, syndications, and growing money? These coins, your money is growing, you can watch it… There’s nothing fun about gold. How do you convince people that that’s the right way to go?

David McAlvany: Well, I think there’s a difference between something that is fun and something that has had a meaningful existence for 5,000 years. If you think about the rise and fall of nations, if you think about the history of the world, and even the fact that we have the opportunity to buy real estate on leverage… The basis of all banking, the basis of all money has been, for 5,000 years, gold. We’re playing games now with fiat currency that has nothing backing it. But the longer history of gold is just money. So you’re interested in money, I’m interested in money; you’re interested in non-fungible tokens, cryptocurrencies, and syndications because it represents more money to your balance sheet and income statement in the future. This means you should have an interest in gold, because gold is nothing but money. It’s just what money has always been, versus what it is today. I’m interested in more money, which to me translates as more ounces. Now, I’m going to get to more ounces through understanding relationships and relative values between asset classes.

Today, the relative relationship between stocks and gold favors getting out of stocks and getting into gold. Why? So I can come back into stocks when stocks are cheap and gold is expensive. I don’t care about ounces, actually. I’m improving my position by moving laterally from one asset class to the next. And yes, I’m interested in syndications, yes, I’m interested in real estate. I’m probably not interested, I’m not your guy for cryptocurrencies and non-fungible tokens, because I don’t know what they are. Maybe you can tell me what they are.

Ash Patel: Yeah, I’m like you. We’re still trying to figure it out. The fear of missing out.

David McAlvany: That’s fear of missing out, it’s “I can’t believe somebody made a million dollars.” There is a sense of sort of irrational exuberance when it comes to those things. Whereas if you look at real estate, the reason you like real estate is because it’s a tangible asset. You can stub your toe on it, you can walk around it, you can get comps in terms of what this thing is worth, and then know if you’re getting a good deal or not a good deal. And you can look at the cash flow attached to it and be like “This is fun.” I look at gold and I say “It’s actually really fun.” Because all you’re doing is playing a game. For me, I may be in gold today so that I can be in acres tomorrow. And I think about that relationship.

Ash Patel: Yeah, it was brilliant with Vaulted where you can just swipe and buy gold.

David McAlvany: Yeah, I think we’re moving into a digital era, certainly. And gold is stuck in the 19th century, certainly. So Vaulted is how you bridge all the integrity of 5,000 years with the innovations and convenience of the 21st century. So you get the benefits of something that has been enduring wealth through millennia, but you’re not hampered by somebody delivering a package to your front door from the US Postal Service, or God forbid, a FedEx driver leaving $50,000 with gold on your doorstep without a signature. So to us, Vaulted is a great way to own an incredibly valuable asset, to protect yourself against inflation, to have some upside in the case of a market downside… Because they do tend to move in opposite directions. If stocks go down over the next two or three years, gold’s going up, no question. So you’ve got some upside.

Ash Patel: And David, what’s the markup? How much more am I paying per ounce if I buy through Vaulted?

David McAlvany: 1.8% is the transaction cost to buy or sell gold through Vaulted. The beauty of Vaulted is we have an arrangement with the Royal Canadian Mint. We’re sourcing our bars directly from them; there is no wholesale middleman. We’re getting the bars as cheap as you can get them. So it’s melt value plus 1.8%. There are actually other people I know in the industry who are like “Oh, we only charge 1%.” Yeah, off of a much higher base. We are one of the most, if not the most affordable way of buying gold. And the beauty is you don’t have to buy an entire bar. You can buy $5 worth, you can buy $20 worth, you can buy $1,000 worth; we have clients that have bought multiple millions of dollars in the Vaulted program.

It’s been particularly popular with people that are looking for a short-term repository for their wealth. You sell a real estate deal, you know it’s going to be put back into the market, you’re going to be hanging out for six to 12 months, and you don’t like what the dollar is doing, and you don’t want it in the bank. Maybe you don’t have had a great relationship with your bank, they certainly aren’t paying you much.

Ash Patel: David, discounting today’s economic climate, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

David McAlvany: My best real estate investing advice ever… I go back to that example of the Plaza Hotel in the 1930s, and I think “Buy when no one else is buying, and sell when everyone is interested in buying.” It’s a contrarian model that it’s really hard to do, because again, there’s the issue of fear of missing out, there’s the issue of what does someone else know that I don’t know? So how confidently are you engaged in the investment process? It’s a lot easier to look around and say everybody’s doing it, everybody’s making money; I’m just not worried. But to be able to buy when no one is showing up, and sell when everyone’s there just begging for the opportunity to own it, this applies across asset classes. But I can’t tell you the number of times we’ve seen it, even in our own industry.

This goes back — again we’ve been in business for 50 years. This is the early, early days, 1979; silver is at $50 an ounce. It’s just gone from $1 to $50; that’s silver. So there is an upside, there is a lot of activity, and a lot of things to be gained in having long exposure to precious metals. But my mom takes the call from a doctor – we were a small business at the time. The doctor says “I want two bags of junk silver.” She’s like, “I don’t think you should do this. You’re paying the highest price silver has ever been. Why don’t you wait six months and see?” He’s like, “Excuse me. I have an MD behind my name. I think I know what I’m doing here.” She could not hold him back, and he went on to lose 80% of his money. Why? Because there’s volatility in any asset class. He bought at the absolute peak, which we didn’t see again until 2011. So where you buy does make sense. If everybody’s clamoring to put money to work, take your time. Everybody wants to move their personal balance sheet ahead as fast as possible. If you’ve got a million dollars in assets, do you want it to be 10? If you’ve got $100,000 in assets, do you want it to be a million? You want to close that time gap to make that happen as fast as possible. Leverage gives you that opportunity, but leverage gives and leverage also takes away. The problem is if you’re overpaying for an asset to begin with, and it’s on leverage, you’re going to find yourself in a world of hurt. I think the best advice I can give is in this environment, you probably just want to cool your jets. And that’s not because you’re any less strategic and wanting to grow your wealth in real estate, it’s because you’re more strategic than the next guy, and you want the best price possible, because you know that’s how money is made – it’s the price you pay, not what you sell it for.

Ash Patel: David are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

David McAlvany: Okay. I don’t know what that means, but sure.

Ash Patel: Alright. You’re about to find out. David, what’s the Best Ever book you recently read?

David McAlvany: The best book I recently read… I’m reading a novel by [unintelligible [00:34:22].21]. I’ve got to get out of my head, which is sometimes tough for me to do. A spy novel… It’s perfect, it’s a complete distraction. So I’m actually in the middle of a [unintelligible [00:34:34].10] novel and it’s fabulous.

Ash Patel: David, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?

David McAlvany: If you’re interested in the Vaulted program, Vaulted is on the app store for either platform, or you can go to vaulted.com online. Keeping in touch on a regular basis; in March we go into our 15th year of a weekly podcast on all things financial. So if you want an education, if you want to deep dive into the deep end of the pool, on economics, finance, and geopolitics, that’s where you find us, at weeklycommentary.com. You can do some binge listening and I doubt you’ll ever catch up, because we’re solidly 14 years in.

Ash Patel: David, thank you for an incredible conversation today. The contrarian advice that you’ve given is refreshing. A lot of us older guys have seen market cycles, but there’s an entire generation that is not. So this is very refreshing advice, very contrarian to everything we’re bombarded with on all of our real estate social media, our real estate news sites, and really what everyone’s telling us. So this was a great dose of reality.

David McAlvany: Ash, thanks for having me on the program. In this period of sort of political volatility and hypersensitivity, I’ve found myself gravitating towards country music, a good dog, a good beer, and a good pickup truck. Let’s just go back to the basics. A song rings in the back of my mind, you’ve got to know when to hold them, you’ve got to know when to fold them, you’ve got to know when to walk away, you’ve got to know when to run. It’s not that you’re any less bullish in real estate, or have less of a strategy, it just means that if you know how to engage even more strategically, the benefits are going to accrue to you that much faster, and you’re not going to be forced to a place you’re playing the patience game.

Ash Patel: Yeah. Again, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five-star review, share this podcast with anyone who you think can benefit from it, and follow and subscribe. Have a Best Ever day.

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