October 8, 2021

JF2593: Converting Single-Family to Multifamily with Derek Clifford

Former Project Manager Derek Clifford used his multifamily income to retire from his W-2 position just this year. Keeping his life vision in mind, he’s currently working with his wife to acquire deals in Indianapolis. Derek is sharing with us his top three goals as a result of his investments, why he chose to focus on small multifamily in the Midwest, and his most creative approach to reaching investors. 


Derek Clifford Real Estate Background:

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Deal Maker Mentoring

Deal Maker Mentoring


Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Ash Patel and I’m with today’s guest, Derek Clifford. Derek is joining us from an unknown location, but a safe location, and we’ll get more into that later. Derek has converted single-family homes into apartments, and is now a syndicator, investor and a JV partner on several deals. Derek is currently Airbnb-nomading around the country, which is why we don’t know his location.

Derek, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?

Derek Clifford: Ash, it’s so great to be here. It’s an honor. I’ve listened to this podcast so many times, and to be a guest on it, it’s pretty incredible.

Ash Patel: It’s our pleasure. Derek, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?

Derek Clifford: Absolutely. So I am a former project manager at a utilities company from the West Coast in the United States, and I’ve retired myself from my W-2 job using a multifamily real estate mentor to do it. And today, my wife and I, we work together to take down small multifamily in the Midwest and in Texas, and we raise capital and we also like to partner up with fantastic operating partners down in Texas, and then we’re doing our own stuff up in the Midwest. So in addition to that, we have masterminds, coaching, we have all kinds of other things to help people get out of the corporate rat race.

Ash Patel: Alright. So, Derek, it’s not a secret where you’re at, but where are you right now?

Derek Clifford: Right now, this is our 16th Airbnb, and I just counted it yesterday. So this is legitimate. This is our 16th Airbnb, and we are in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Ash Patel: How long ago did this Airbnb venture start, the traveling?

Derek Clifford: We started back in May, and we were mostly in California, which is the place that I was working, and just traveling around because of the pandemic; we kind of took advantage of that and started traveling within the state. And then when we made the decision to leave the job, that kind of opened up everything. So from that point forward, we were making our way east from California to Nevada, then Utah, Colorado, and Kansas City, Missouri. And now we’re here in Indianapolis, and we have a few more stops to go.

Ash Patel: I’m dying to hear the story. So you were working full-time, and you’ve found multifamily as a way to retire yourself and your wife. Can you take us through that journey? What got you started, and how you ended up being able to retire?

Derek Clifford: Yeah,. So when I first started, I started out like a lot of multifamily investors first do, which is in single families. So I did that back in 2017. I got started out of state here in Indiana, and then what happened was, Ash, we ran out of single-family loans; we could only do a certain amount of them before banks start turning you away. So after we maxed out those number of loans, we started looking, “Okay, what is the next step?”

So the next step for us was naturally, multifamily. So we started out by doing a JV in the market that I had built up my single-family portfolio, which was out in the Midwest. And then we realized another thing – we were running out of capital; we only had enough money to be able to put into these properties before we started to run out.

In the meantime, you know, I had a lot of colleagues at work, who were asking me how to do all this. So I wrote a book that basically described my entire process of, my whole blueprint, on how to get from working a full-time job and doing part-time real estate investing, and doing that on the side. So I documented that all in a book and then just gave it to everyone I knew. And then that started attracting more and more interest.

And then I got a mentor, his name is Vinney Chopra—I’m sure that he’s been on the show once or twice—and he showed me the world of syndication, and that’s how we kind of got started. So basically, building this entire business on the side. But one thing I do want to mention, Ash, is that the key to all this was my wife. Without having my wife on board with me to help facilitate the mental space, the physical space and the time space for me to be able to do all this… And she was also a visionary behind all this, and she was kind of asking questions as to what would happen if we were able to do what we wanted to do with multifamily real estate.

So it’s really funny how your life is determined by the questions that you ask and how you answer them. And once you have quality questions, you get a quality result. And with those good questions came out a lot of work, but out came these fantastic results, and so that’s kind of where we are today.

Ash Patel: What did your employer think of you handing out books, basically a guide on how to quit the rat race?

Derek Clifford: Very good question. They actually didn’t say anything, because they did not know. A lot of it was under the radar type of thing. It was the relationships that I had built, talking with people that I had close relationships with as a project manager. So I just kind of gave that to them or told them where to go to get the info.

Ash Patel: It reminds me the movie Old School. You started a secret fraternity. And you can’t talk about it at work.

Derek Clifford: Yes, sir.  Absolutely.

Ash Patel: So 2017, it wasn’t that long ago. And that’s when you got started.

Derek Clifford: Yeah, so 2017 was when we actually got a lot of our single-family started. Just this year, it’s been absolutely insane. This year, we started off by converting all of my single-families to multifamily, and doing three syndications as well, as a capital partner. But definitely, we ramped up a lot this year in multifamily, because we started to get a lot of the interest from the previous years built up.

And then also, I have a pretty cool trick for the listeners, too; if you have a bunch of single families, and you want to buy a multifamily, and you have a whole bunch of equity in them, and let’s say that these single families are inside of your personal name, you can do a 1031 out of your personal name and into an LLC. But the catch is, is that you have to keep the EIN number for that single-member LLC that you create as your social security number. So you can actually do that – you can create an LLC, that’s not its own entity from a tax perspective, but is an LLC, so that you still get some of the legal protections that an LLC offers.

So as soon as I heard that from a few people that I have been networking within the multifamily space, my mind kind of opened, and then I was able to convert all of my single-family homes that you mentioned the intro, into multifamily property. And then of course, that gave me the broker credibility, that gave me the track record, and it gave me something to really give a lot of credibility to my path going forward. So then, along with that came a lot more capital, a lot more interest, and when you have capital and you have a deal pipeline, things just magically start to happen.

Ash Patel: Money attracts money, right?

Derek Clifford: Absolutely, sir.

Ash Patel: Derek, explain that to me a little bit more in-depth… You have an LLC with no holdings in it. Is that right?

Derek Clifford: Actually, what we did was – as long as you talk with your 1031 company, they should give you the same advice, at least today; and we did this back in February and March, so I can’t say — whoever’s listening to this podcast now, at least at the time of this recording, this still exists, in September of 2021. But if you create an entity, as long as you do that before you close on the property and you give it to your 1031 folks, and you show that the tax ID is the same at the purchase as it is at the sale, they’re fine with that. So you can create that entity, you just have to flag a 1031 when you do the sale. And then once the sale completes, you have 45 days to get the replacement property. So there’s already a lot of work there, but you can create the entity as soon as you find the thing to 1031 into.

Ash Patel: Okay, so you’re still bound by the 45-day identification period.

Derek Clifford: You are.

Ash Patel: Ah, I thought you had a secret way around that.

Derek Clifford: No, I don’t think so. I wish there was, but there’s no way around that.

Ash Patel: So what year did you retire?

Derek Clifford: Well, I retired here in 2021, about one month ago, almost to the day.

Ash Patel: Well, congratulations. And your wife did as well?

Derek Clifford: Yes, she’s actually a naturopathic doctor, so she has her own practice. So she’s been doing her own work for a while now, but with the pandemic, I’m really proud of her and what she’s done because she has been able to stop her practice going into the office, and now she’s doing everything online and she’s completely shifted her business model.

Break: [08:48] to [10:49]

Ash Patel: When your wife asked you, “What do you want to happen?”, what was your answer?

Derek Clifford: What we want to happen in terms of…?

Ash Patel: So if this thing pans out, what do you envision happening? This is a question that I wrote down – your wife was the visionary, and she said, “What do you want to happen as a result of this real estate investing?”

Derek Clifford: That’s a really great question, Ash. We’ve been on the same page for a very long time, when it comes to that type of thing, and our vision. Our life was going to be, back at the time, we wanted to have the ability to be able to help 1,000 couples get retired from their W-2 situation, so that they’re not working a corporate job, and they’re able to do what they want to do. At the same time, we’re traveling, and we have complete locational freedom, which we do now have today. And in addition to that, what was really important to us was to be able to live off of 10% of what we make, and give 90 away to the causes that we believe in.

Ash Patel: That’s incredible. So all of the masterminds that you’re doing and all of the coaching, all the investing, is that 100% remote?

Derek Clifford: All of them. 100% remote.

Ash Patel: Is that difficult, or do you just have to continue to find systems to put in place, so that you could stay remote?

Derek Clifford: No–

Ash Patel: Because it’s easier—a part of you has got to be like, “Man, I could just go back to Indianapolis and take care of this myself.”

Derek Clifford: Oh, of course. I think that when your network grows large enough, like it is right now for me, every city that I go to, there’s an opportunity for me to network with someone. So after this, we’re heading to Memphis, and we already have two people that we’re going to be meeting up with, and there’s probably many more that we can do. So I don’t miss the in-person aspect, because we still are getting that. I know that COVID is kind of this new thing that’s kind of throwing a wrench in that, but I’ve gotten quite used to doing virtual networking, and then taking the opportunity to really solidify the relationship when we are actually in that area. So we haven’t really missed a beat at all, Ash. I think it’s been actually great to be able to get exposure to even more people… Because I have to admit, if you don’t have these in-person meetups, these people are getting their networking fix online, and that’s how we were able to get exposure to a lot more people.

Ash Patel: Derek, you mentioned you’re looking for small multifamily. What does that mean?

Derek Clifford: Yeah, small means anywhere between 75 and 40 units. But right now, the price point that we’re looking at is anywhere between $3 million to $6 million in purchase price. So depending on the market that you’re at, that’s kind of the unit counts that we’re looking for. But we’re recently starting to think bigger, and we want to go up into the higher spaces; it’s just that right now we’re seeing that there’s a lot of competition and a lot of institutional money out there that’s willing to go after things in the 100-plus unit space. And quite frankly, they have access to cash, and their motivation is a lot different. They’re looking for safety, when we’re looking for yield, as private investors.

So we’re still looking in that space, and we can bring on several partners that we’ve met to be able to help get that acquired. But we’ve been finding that a lot of the great deals are actually in some of the smaller unit spaces. And what our plan, Ash, is for us to acquire a whole bunch of property in [unintelligible [00:13:50].27] metro area, and then eventually, we’ll be able to sell those as a portfolio and have a little bit of cap compression, because if you keep them as a portfolio, you can install one property manager there, you can get economies of scale, even though there are different buildings; they’re just right across the street from each other or right down the block… So that’s kind of what we’re looking to do at this point. That’s our one hack around trying to do those 100 unit buildings by getting 244 units or something, and then taking the fence down between them, that type of thing.

Ash Patel: What area are you focused on?

Derek Clifford: Well, right now our clear strength is in Indianapolis; that’s where we have a lot of our deal flow. And we love this area, because the inventory is so tight. So it means that if we pick up some properties right now, there isn’t that much new construction coming in, although I think that’s going to start changing soon. But the dynamics here in Indianapolis is incredible. I think in 2020 there’s over a 7% rent growth through the pandemic, and that trend looks to be continuing. And then of course, we love the dynamics down in Texas, too. We love Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, so we definitely are working with great people down there. But for us actively, we’re going to be probably mostly based out of Indianapolis, because as we pick up our portfolio of small rental properties, we’re going to start to vertically integrate here and start to establish a home base in this area.

Ash Patel: Derek, 40-70 units – is that typically an unsophisticated seller? Meaning they don’t have all of their due diligence package ready to go.

Derek Clifford: That is 100% correct. So we’ve been in an occasion many times already where we asked for seller financials, and they’re not willing to provide bank statements. It makes for a very interesting conversation with the lender, who is trying to get this to make sure that whatever rents are coming in place does make sense. So there’s a little bit of a trust factor there that I’ve also been able to establish with a lot of my banking contacts here, where they know that we see the upside potential, and they trust in us and our business plan to be able to execute. But you’re right, the unsophisticated sellers – there’s pluses and minuses to that, and that’s one of the downsides. But we’ve been finding that the pluses have been far outweighing that, because it gives us the opportunity to do some value-adds that are relatively easy. Honestly, as long as you have a great property manager and your interests are aligned, by either looping them in, or giving them some equity for their work, or just paying them well and treating them well, and treating them like a member of the team, that’s how you’re able to start scaling up really quickly in the small multifamily space.

Ash Patel: Derek, what creative ways have you found deals?

Derek Clifford: Oh, that’s really funny. So back, when I was working in the Bay Area in California – I have a really good friend out here, and he would drive for dollars every week. So he would literally drive around and look for properties in the neighborhoods here in Indianapolis for me. At the time, I only had single-family homes. But was, as I said, we were out of loans, so we were looking for things to get ourself into a non-recourse realm, or at least in someplace where we don’t have to worry about Fannie Mae saying “No, you have too many loans.”

So as he was driving around and looking at stuff, he found one building that looked to be a good fit. And every week, I would sit down, he would send me pictures, I would look at the GPS coordinates of the pictures that would come in, I’d try to find the tax records, who the owner was, do a little bit of skip tracing, try to do some Google stalking and stuff to try to find who the owner was behind the LLC… And we found one that — it was interesting enough, we were two weeks behind, and they had just given the listing to the broker. But we had opened up the conversation, right? And when the seller hears from us and saying, “How did you guys know that this was being listed? How did you guys find this out?” And I explained the whole story to him, “We’re just trying to hustle.” And the seller forwarded our email to the broker and connected us with the broker, and that was enough for him to be motivated to want to sell to us, because he knew how dedicated we were.

So I think doing those little things that add up, and just trying to hustle wherever you can – that might be your one way in. And as soon as you can show to a broker that you can close, then the pipeline just starts opening up. At least that’s what we’ve been finding.

Ash Patel: Yeah, hustle wins. And you’re right… I’ve had a lot of brokers send me deals, and when I don’t buy them, I never hear from them again. But you’re right, the ones that you do buy from, you start getting that reputation. So – great advice.

What made you connect with Vinney Chopra?

Derek Clifford: I wish I could say that it was a scientific method that I came down and said, “I looked at price and I looked at features”, and all that. But at the time, Vinney was just getting started and he lived within a stone’s throw of where I was, in the Bay Area. So that was a big thing, because he had local events back then before the pandemic started, so it was easy for me to get to an event and see him in person.

Another thing was is that we’re both GoBundance members. So him and I both had the GoBundance connection before the whole thing even started. And thirdly, if you’ve met Vinney Chopra, before—have you met Vinney Chopra before?

Ash Patel: I have not.

Derek Clifford: Okay; if you’ve met him, you’ll understand why… Because his positivity and his personality is something that I want to achieve, too. There’s so many mentors out there and people that are doing really good stuff, but there’s just not a character fit. I want to eventually follow my mentor, and not only the way that he is doing deals, but also who he is as a person. Because that kind of percolates through to everything you’re doing – your messaging, your marketing.

So we really liked Vinney’s personality; we thought that where he was in life was where we wanted to be in life eventually. So we want to learn from him not only in the multifamily space, but from a mindset perspective, and what he’s doing outside of multifamily. Because you know, Ash, we’re so busy in the multifamily space chasing dollars, trying to get where we are to where we’re financially independent, right? Financially independent, retire early. But no one has ever given thought to “What does it look like after that? What are you doing after that?”

So if you set all this up, and you’re in a position where you’re financially retired, and you’ve gotten yourself to a point where you’ve achieved everything you’ve achieved, but now you don’t have positivity, or you don’t have any friends or family, because you’ve just been working your whole life, and there’s no balance, and there’s no systems in place… Basically, you’re following a different mentor’s path – then what’s the point of that?

So we saw what Vinney has become because of the advice that he’s giving and what he’s doing for his own business, and we definitely wanted a piece of that; we wanted not only the success he’s achieved in multifamily, but also the success that he’s achieved personally.

Ash Patel: And a lot of your syndication knowledge and experience comes from your interactions with him?

Derek Clifford: Yeah, I would say a lot of it comes from him. There was also some other individuals that were involved; like, we went through three or four coaching programs, and we’re always getting coaches and we’re always in masterminds, just because that’s the best way to keep your network up and stay sharp. But he gave me the fundamentals and the confidence to be able to go out there and do syndications.

Ash Patel: When was your first syndication?

Derek Clifford: It depends on how you define that… But there was one thing where I raised some money for an LP stake on a property back in 2018. And this is right when I first got interested in multifamily, and was introduced to GoBundance space. So that one I raised for an LP position, just because I wanted to learn how they ran a syndication and see what it’s like to be an actual LP. But I didn’t have the $50,000 myself, so I kind of got some people together in the office to pool our money together, and then we together went in as a single entity. But I would say that the one that I got first active in was April this year, so not too far long ago.

Break: [21:16] to [23:56]

Ash Patel: How did you find investors for that?

Derek Clifford: A lot of the investors there were from people that I’ve known over a long period of time. And a lot of them were also people that are interested in my book, too. So people that read my book and saw my “business card,” which is the book, they were interested in learning more. And then when I presented an opportunity with someone that I trusted in the Texas area, they felt like the time was right. And I would say that I didn’t get very many organic leads from a lot of my marketing, because I was just getting started back then. I say back then isn’t five months ago, but that’s kind of what it feels like; it feels like a long time ago. But things have picked up a little bit now. But mostly, it was one, leads people that I’ve worked with before, or invested with before, or they were friends.

Ash Patel: So a lot of friends and family; typical for the first investment. And what types of marketing avenues do you have to attract more investors?

Derek Clifford: Yeah, great question. So I have a very talented virtual professional based out of the Philippines, and he does phenomenal work. So what we did was we took a lot of things that we learned from Vinney, and then, of course, branded it. And as far as marketing goes, it really wasn’t too much. We have our own podcast, which is something; we have our book, that was another thing. And then we have blog posts, and we’re very active on social media. So it takes a lot to figure out what channel is going to work for you. And I keep getting the advice that “you should go narrow and deep”, which is what we’re doing with the podcast. That’s where we get a lot of the people who start plugging into our stuff.

So really, I think it was branding, taking the offering memorandum from the lead syndicator or the lead sponsor, and then putting our own twist in it, adding material, taking some away, and then rebranding it so that it looks like our own material is usually the best way to go.

And then of course, we did a webinar and we did a presentation as well to go over the investment, and to show people that we knew what was happening there, and what the returns were, and why we were excited about it.

Ash Patel: A lot of traditional marketing avenues. What’s your most creative approach to reaching investors?

Derek Clifford: That’s a good one. We’re starting up a mastermind soon, so that’s going to be one way to just get people involved in an open community where there’s people that have the same questions as you. But I would say the most creative way would be just using LinkedIn. Whenever you get someone that responds to one of your social media posts, even if it’s a like or something, doing the hard work of going out there and saying, “Hey, I noticed that you liked some of my content. Thank you for that. Do you have any real estate goals? I’d like to learn a little bit more about you.” Because when someone does that, you want to see who is willing to invest the next step, which would be to respond to your message. So you want to be the initiator always. So I think that that’s one of the main ways, is to be really, really intentional about the people that reach out to you on these platforms that you pick, especially when you’re first starting out, to learn a little bit more about the audience that actually liked your material.

Ash Patel: Again, what a great philosophy. Derek, you mentioned GoBundance a few times. For the Best Ever listeners that don’t know what that is, do you mind giving the audience a little definition of that?

Derek Clifford: Yeah, just real quick… So GoBundance – I’ve known these guys for a really long time, and I just recently was able to join earlier this year. But I really love this group because they are truly whole-life millionaires, that are in this group. There’s definitely a financial focus, but we believe in GoBbundance, that you have to be a whole-life millionaire to really grab life big and to really make it what you want to be.

So the epitome of someone who is not a success, but thinks they are is someone that has a lot of money, but nothing else. So what we like to focus in GoBundance is spirituality, giving back, relationships, career, personal growth, family, friends, the tribe, and health as well. We focus on all of these things, because if you’re weak in one part of this wheel of life, then you’re not going to roll very far, because a square wheel doesn’t move very well. So if you’re well rounded — it’s really funny how, when you’re healthy and you have great relationships, that money just flows to you. It’s an interesting concept. And then the vice versa is the same, too.

So the idea is to grow out from the center together and not just in one direction, which will be financial. That is important. But the idea is that your mindset, as it grows, your external world will eventually catch up with it. So if your mindset is just on money, that’s all you’re going to get. But if you’re aware of all of these different aspects of life, then everything’s going to expand together. So that’s kind of the second piece.

Ash Patel: Thank you for that. Derek, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Derek Clifford: I think the biggest thing for me was analysis paralysis when I first started. And for those people who are at a plateau in their business right now, they’re at single families and they want to go to multifamily, or they’re already doing JVs and multifamily and they want to go into syndication, I think that the first thing to do is reframe your expectations. If you’re able to take your expectations and take them from a point of hitting a home run right from the beginning, and change it to more of, “Well, I really want to learn something here. I want to cover my risk, obviously, I want to use the 80/20 rule. But I want to make sure that whatever I invest in, I’m going to learn a lot from.”

So as soon as you make that perspective change, it just knocks the barrier down to action… And I’m all about action, finding out what works, and being hands-on. So that is my best ever advice to the audience is, reframe your expectations on what it is you’re looking to do, and just try to learn something. Know it’s going to be a long-term investment and commitment, and understand this is a long-term game, and the more you can focus on learning at the beginning, the more successful you’re going to be later on.

Ash Patel: Derek, earlier you mentioned you’re starting a mastermind. What is your definition of a mastermind? What exactly are you guys doing?

Derek Clifford: Yes, the team and I were just talking about this today. We want to build a community where people are engineering their exit from their W-2. They talk about concerns, they talk about why it’s hard, they talk about the methods to get there, and they’re looking for inspiration in the community.

So what we do is we’re planning on doing a mastermind where it’s open to everyone, and soon the details will be out there. So probably by the time this comes out for the listeners, we should have something available on our website. And what we’ll do in there is we’ll have 15 minutes or so to talk about a topic, and then we’ll break out into breakout rooms, and then have everyone discuss what the topic is, any concerns or issues, and we’ll just lead the discussion around the topics of investing together with your spouse, leaving your full-time job, how to get started in real estate investing or other business, and just really a lot of mindset, relationship and real estate-centric focuses for those who are looking to leave the corporate world.

Ash Patel: I love that. Derek, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Derek Clifford: Let’s do it, man.

Ash Patel: Let’s do it. Derek, what’s the best ever book you’ve recently read?

Derek Clifford: Ah, there’s so many. But I have to give Raising Capital for Real Estate by Hunter Thompson. I have to give him a shout out there. That’s a really, really good one. And the other one, if I can, is David Goggins, Can’t Hurt Me. Fantastic book about how we really have more mind capacity than we think we do.

Ash Patel: Derek, what’s the best ever way you like to give back?

Derek Clifford: Generally, we like to give advice and sit down with people and help them with their real estate. So we do a lot of the coaching, one-off, as pro bono. But I think that the thing that we like to do is give to an organization called 1Life Fully Lived, and they’re focused on financial education and helping people when they’re very young learn about finances and how important it is and how it compounds, in a lot of these low-income areas. My good friend in GoBundance, Tim Rhode, is the co-founder or is the founder of this organization… So we’re really passionate about giving back there.

Ash Patel: Derek, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?

Derek Clifford: The easiest way to do that is to email me at derek@elevateequity.org, or if you want to learn more about us and even schedule some time if you like what you see on our website, just go to elevateequity.org. It’s very simple. We have all of our stuff there – our portfolio, our podcasts, blogs, everything about coaching, and how to get a hold of me if you have any questions.

Ash Patel: Well, Derek, I can’t thank you enough. Thank you for sharing your story today, and being an inspiration to the Best Ever listeners that might be in a 9-5, they might want to break out into multifamily. You started in 2017 with single-families, and less than four years later, you’re retired, and now you’re teaching others how to do the same thing. So thank you for inspiring our Best Ever listeners.

Derek Clifford: Ash, it’s been a pleasure being on. Thank you so much for having me.

Ash Patel: Thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us and have a best ever day.

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