Growing up in a frugal household, Travis Watts had budgeting skills and values from a young age and put them to use when he left for college. In today’s episode of the Actively Passive Investing Show, Travis shares his journey to financial independence. He talks about his start in real estate with house hacking, the pivotal moment that kickstarted his financial freedom, and the four key steps he took to get there.
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Travis Watts: Best Ever listeners, this is Travis Watts with the Actively Passive Show. Thank you guys, as always, for tuning in, for being here, for making the time and for being part of the Best Ever community. You’re so appreciated and I hope you know that.
Today’s episode, I am going to be as transparent and honest as I possibly can be. I’ve been putting this off for months, and the reason is, this is really an episode where it’s a vulnerable episode; it’s an episode where I’m going to share with you highlights from my life, my personal experience, my upbringing, and quite frankly, I don’t like to talk about that stuff… Because, well, it’s a vulnerability thing. But here’s the thing – I decided to reframe it a little bit, in that I thought – I’m sure you could agree – nobody likes to sit and listen to, “Hey, I was born and raised in this area, and then I went to this school and—.” That life story. But I thought there’s a lot of elements to the path to financial independence that I can share with you guys, and I can extract those from my story, and I can relate that to you.
So whether you’re on your journey to building your own financial independence, whatever that means for you – we’ll talk about that more – or whether you’re already financially independent, hopefully, what I’ve extracted out of my story can help you; maybe in building your plan or maybe thinking a little bit different about your strategy, perhaps. So I’m not going to be too long-winded here with the intro. This is about building financial independence. This is yes, my story, but this is a story about you. So forget the details about what career I was in etc, and extract the elements that are relatable to you, and I think you’ll find a lot of value out of it.
So without further ado – humble beginnings. I came from a family that was very frugal, I was taught throughout my childhood about save money, live below your means, buy the off-brand, use coupons, drive an extra two miles out of your way to save three cents a gallon on gas. This was kind of my financial reality growing up. I really honestly knew nothing about money in general, the price of items or certainly nothing about investing. But I really got a foundation around personal budgeting and being very, very careful with what money you did have… And that’s because my parents split when I was five years old. At one time, I think my mom was working two or three jobs, and I was living with her, and seeing my dad every other weekend. So both of them had to rebuild their lives, almost from scratch.
So as you can imagine, these kinds of ideas are not that exciting to a child. When you’re in the grocery store. “I want this.” “No, we can’t afford it. No, it costs too much. No, we don’t have a coupon for that.” But at the same time, it was instilling some really great values in me that we’re going to be way more useful and relatable in later years. In fact, I guess I’ll just dive to it right now. I’m going to jump forward now to leaving home at 17, living on my own, being completely independent, financially speaking.
So I went to Orlando, Florida, and the reason I went out there was to go to college, and because I had a scholarship. To be frank with you guys, I didn’t want to go to college. I didn’t think that was for me. But considering I had a scholarship, I thought, “Well, what a waste to not take up that offer.” So I committed to myself to do two years of college. I decided what I would do is I would work part-time; I would just work at a job, I would just do odds and ends. I worked for Walt Disney World for a while, I detailed cars and waxed small aviation aircraft… My parents had lived in an airport community, which is kind of a really unique way to be brought up.
I went back and I actually looked at this years ago – I was living on $8,000 gross income, annually. $8,000 per year, that was my total income. It was a part-time income, it was damn near minimum wage. I used the frugality upbringing; I was doing things like saying, “Okay, $2 per meal, three meals per day max. I have $6 set aside on a daily budget for food.” So as you can imagine, I wasn’t going out to restaurants, I wasn’t eating very healthy; not to say you can’t eat healthy food for cheap – I’ve talked about that in previous episodes – but it certainly was restrictive, I’ll put it that way.
My car at the time, thankfully, it was paid off and it had a Kelley Blue Book value of about $2,500… That was the result of selling my first car which was $800 and actually making a profit off of it after I was done, and then saving up some extra money to put towards a car purchase. Mind you, this was a reliable vehicle. However, it had no air conditioning, and I was in Orlando, Florida; so you can probably imagine 100 degree summers, crazy humidity and sweat my butt off everywhere I went. I refused to use the toll roads because I just quite frankly didn’t have the money for them. So from the place I live to the place I worked, I would often be sitting in the car for an hour at a time just sweating my butt off and walking out with a completely wet shirt by the time I got there. It was pretty disgusting.
The last thing I’ll point out is my biggest expense was rent and I had a roommate. We split the rent on a one-bedroom apartment, and my roommate slept on an air mattress in where the dining room table would normally be, so underneath the chandelier light, and I slept in the bedroom. Thankfully, I got the bedroom. I don’t know how that worked out. And I slept on an air mattress for two years, had no furniture and we shared the closet in the bedroom. So sometimes early in the morning, he’d have to go to work and walk right through my bedroom into the closet to get ready, wake me up. It was just… Living the dream. Humble beginnings, right?
So transitioning from that crazy debacle into “How did I get into real estate?” Backing up a few years prior to all that, I had read a book, it was given to me by my dad, he had found it at a garage sale, it was called Rich Dad’s Prophecy. It was not Rich Dad Poor Dad that a lot of people attribute to their gateway book into the real estate space.
But what it did teach me is really just two things – stay out of the stock market and invest for cash flow. Those were the only things I remember about it and even to this day. I haven’t gone back to reread it, I’m sure it’s packed with great content, but those were my only two takeaways. So I did stay out of the stock market, thankfully. I stayed out a real estate too, because I wasn’t ready to invest, and in comes the Great Recession 2008-2009, everything’s falling apart. Thankfully, I wasn’t investing at that time; I was just saving up my money. But I did plant the seed that I am going to get into real estate when I can.
As I was graduating college and I was pursuing this live show production kind of career, I was going to Manhattan, I was working on Staten Island, I was doing these off-Broadway plays, I was an audio and lighting engineer, I just got this realization one day, kind of this quarter-life crisis, and I thought, “If I’m going to be serious about real estate and investing, I’m going to have to make some money”, and the only thing that Manhattan was doing to my account was draining it to zero.
So in a split second, knee jerk reaction,—I say split second; it probably took me about two or three days to make this decision—I decided, I’m bailing. I’m bailing on this career, this college degree and where I’m living. I’m going to move back to Colorado where I was raised. I was raised about an hour outside of Denver, and I took on an oil field job, because that was the highest- and best-earning opportunity that I knew of with my connections, my resources, my degree, everything I knew.
What it entailed was, you have to work 100 hours per week, or actually 98 to be specific – it was 14 hour days, and you had to swing sledgehammers, you had to beat up iron in the dead of winter when it’s negative 20 outside, in the hot summer… I later worked in Saudi Arabia where it’s 120 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer; same thing, man – swinging hammers and doing manual labor, being away from home. So the reason it paid so well is – one, the amount of hours you’re working. You’ve got about 60 hours overtime, 40 hour straight time plus bonuses and incentives and premiums and things like that.
But there was a silver lining to all this – I was finally going to have money. I was not going to have to do this $8,000 a year and try to save up for a home. I was actually going to have some real money to play around with and to work with, and I knew exactly what I wanted to do with it; I was to put it into real estate again. This was 2009, I’m sitting here watching home values come down and down and down… Same with stocks, and I thought, “If there’s ever a time to start investing, this is probably my opportunity.”
Travis Watts: In real estate, the thing I love about it, and the thing that you probably love about it, is that it’s real. It’s tangible; you can touch it, feel it, live in it, change the business model around it. It’s an actual useful thing, right? You invest in a stock and it goes to zero, what happened in reality? Nothing. It is a blip on a radar, just a digital moment in time, a piece of paper, a statement. But with real estate, it’s tough to go to zero per se.
So let’s talk about jumping into real estate. So I’m finally working this job and I’m living, by the way, with my frugality mindset. I did raise my living standard a little bit, maybe $12,000 to $15,000 per year; certainly not $8,000, but certainly not comfortable. So I still had roommates, and I bought a two bed, one bath house at a very depressed price. I started house hacking, as you probably heard that story on previous episodes; roommate was paying me $600 a month for a furnished bedroom in my house. And my mortgage was $640. So I was basically living for $40 per month and I was still doing this $2 a meal three meals a day kind of stuff. That was my entry to real estate. But then I had a little more money because – let’s just run the oilfield math here for you. So to use simple numbers, these aren’t my exact numbers, but they’re pretty close. So say I made $100,000 per year, and I paid $30,000 in taxes. So that’s $70,000, and say I was living on $15,000. So that nets out at $55,000 that I was able to save in year number one.
So what I was doing is I was buying single-family homes, condos and townhomes, and I was flipping them, I was turning them around. Again, this is 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015. This is where I was in the single-family space. So the market had basically bottomed and was starting to rebound; it was starting to kind of crawl back. So it’s a good time in the market where I was to be doing this strategy. I was able to buy a lot of bank-owned properties, a lot of foreclosures…
So what would happen is I would take that $50,000, for example, I’d go put it into a flip, and then I would walk away, let’s say six months later, for example, with $100,000. Then I would take the $100,000, I would divide it up into $50,000 and $50,00, and I would go buy two flips or rentals, and then I would turn that around then I would have 200k or 300k. So it just started snowballing. It was a ton of work, by the way.
The reason I burned out after six years of doing this is because it took all my time and energy. As I mentioned, I was working 98 hours per week, so I’m sure you can imagine what spare time I had – or didn’t have rather – to dedicate to this kind of thing. So I wasn’t very good at what I was doing. It was a little bit of dumb luck. It was a little bit of the market, it was a little bit of just the opportunity then… But it was also a lot of sacrifice and hard work in the sense of saving and being frugal. And I want to pause right here for a minute.
What I always tell people on podcasts and other interviews is there’s really four steps to follow for financial independence from my upbringing. I’m not telling you what to do, but this is what worked for me. It’s work your highest and best-earning potential. Everyone’s different; doctor, dentist, lawyer, attorney, what you went to school for, oilfield, it doesn’t matter… Normal job, doing all kinds of side jobs, and flipping houses, whatever it is.
Then number two is live on as little of that income as possible for a period of time. What I’m sharing with you right now in my story is those first six years of extreme sacrifice. Again, I’m not recommending that to anybody, I’m just saying that’s how long it took, and that’s what I did.
Number three is you have to invest, man. You can’t do – like my parents and my upbringing, you can’t just use a coupon at the grocery store and put that 50 cents in your bank account and save, save, save, because you’re going to get eaten up by inflation and you’re never going to find true financial independence. So you have to invest. I chose to invest in things that have equity potential and/or some cash flow rental component to it.
Number four is avoid bad debt. I was fortunate not to have student loan debt, because as I mentioned, I had a scholarship. But also I didn’t get into credit card debt. I wasn’t financing vehicles. I didn’t have that kind of debt. I did at one time, but it wasn’t much I paid it off very quickly. Those are the four steps. So if you haven’t heard me talk about those before, there you go.
But here’s the funny thing – back to the fix and flips, who was I really fooling? I’m not a handyman. That’s not my background. I wasn’t raised by builders or carpenters. My family wasn’t real estate people. So I had no connections. I was a nobody in the industry, and I wasn’t enjoying what I was doing, and it was manual labor a lot of times… And what was I doing 98 hours per week on top of that? Manual freaking labor, man. It was just not a good fit for me. And I later thought, “Okay—,” Airbnb was getting real popular; the short-term rental was all the rage, the fees were low at that time—and I thought, “Holy crap, I could get so much cash flow out of this.” So I started doing these Airbnb’s, thinking it’d be less labor and whatever, but it was more time intensive, man. It was so time intensive. Even if you outsource it to other companies, there’s still a lot of decisions to make, there’s still furnishing and decorating and asset management and taxes, and it was a nightmare. So I kind of pulled the plug basically, after six years of flips, vacation rentals, having roommates, house hacking; it was too much time commitment. Why? Let’s frame it this way – back to relatability to you – I was a busy professional who worked a lot of hours, let’s just put it that way. So forget the oil field and all the specifics. I’m sure you could relate to – you’ve worked a lot of hours, you’ve been overworked; you wish that you could work a little bit less than what you do, something to that effect. So that was me; that was just simply me in a nutshell.
I didn’t have time to travel, I spent as much time with family and friends as I wanted to. I just didn’t have time to relax, and be myself and do leisurely things. It was just work, work, work, grind, grind, grind, and I’m telling you, that is not sustainable. You’re going to fall on your face dead, or you’re going to burn out; something’s going to happen there. So thankfully, mine was the burnout, not the death.
Here’s what I want you to know… There came a time that I had to ask myself a very important question, and you should ask yourself this question as well. What are my goals? And what investment strategy can best get me there? I’ll say that again… What are my goals, short-term and long-term? What is the best investment strategy that can help get me there? That was a fundamental shift in my thinking. I hadn’t been thinking long-term, first of all. I’d just been thinking money, money, now, now, now, today, today. I was not thinking 5, 10 tor 15 years. And of course, I had goals. Of course, I wanted to get married. Of course, I wanted to start a family. And that may not be your goals, but everybody has goals, is my point. Maybe you want to be more charitable, maybe you want to be a part-time work or maybe you’re just looking to retire. Everyone’s got a goal, and/or goals. Identify them, write them down on paper, share them with people. That’s what makes it real. Do a vision board. I love vision boards, putting up different pictures of, “Here’s my dream home, my dream lifestyle. Here’s where I want to vacation.”
So I made a decision right then and there, I do not want to be a landlord. I want to be an investor. I started realizing, I’m not good at flipping houses. This isn’t what I enjoy. I don’t like managing tenants. I don’t like having phone calls at midnight to 3:00 am. I don’t know why it is you always get those calls in that specific timeframe. I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening right now that can relate to that. You just don’t have the time.
If I was a doctor, for example, and I worked my practice Monday through Friday, do you really think I want to take Saturday and Sunday and go flip houses? You might, I’m not saying you don’t, or that no one out there in the world does that. There are people. Does it make sense? I don’t know. When I calculated my time – that’s another thing – I was working these flips for like maybe 40 bucks an hour. You think a doctor wants to go out and work 40 bucks an hour and use all their free time up doing that? Probably not. I wanted a lifestyle. I didn’t even have a lifestyle, man. It was go to bed, wake up, work; go to bed, wake up, work. That was my life. There was no life-style. There was just maybe a life. I wouldn’t call it much of one.
So here’s my big question or my big hurdle, rather, is how do I get there? This is where it gets really good.
In 2015, I decided I’m going to dedicate to self-education. I’m going to read a bunch of books on real estate, I’m going to join real estate meetup groups, I’m going to listen to podcasts, I’m going to start networking, I’m going to start making friends, I’m going to find mentors… I really got serious about, “I need to get out of this rut, I need to live my life differently and I need something more sustainable and scalable long term in terms of real estate in my investing.” I didn’t know what that was or what that looked like, but I was going to find it and I got determined.
So I joined this rather large, still in existence today, real estate meetup group out of Colorado, and there was two gentlemen there I was introduced to. I’ve shared the story before, I don’t know if on this show, but on other podcasts… wo individuals one in their 60s, one in their 70s. They had sold their businesses in the mid-1990s, both of them, different businesses, and they were friends. They both became investors, basically overnight. They never really anticipated having as much liquidity and equity as they walked away with, basically, and they thought, “What do we do with this? We’ve got to start learning what to do with our money.”
So they started investing mostly in private equity; mostly, in fact, in private placement multifamily syndications. And that is not a term I had ever heard before. I did not know what that meant, and we’ll talk about that, I guess, right now. So it’s basically they were limited partners in a limited partnership. So there’s the general partners that went out and found the deals and underwrote the deals and raised the capital and blah, blah, blah. They were the limited partner saying, “Hey, here’s 100 grand, I want to invest in your deal. Just send me some checks when you get cash flow and some equity upon refinance or sale.” So they were hands-off, that’s the point that I’m making here, is what did I want more than to still invest in real estate, but not have to be active in the business of real estate? Really nothing. That was really what I wanted, I just didn’t know it existed or how to do it. This was my ticket. This was a huge game-changer for me. You’re telling me I can reap the tax benefits and the leverage and the cash flow and the whole aspects, everything that we all love about real estate, without having to manage the tenants and manage the contractors and spend all my free time trying to find properties? Man, sign me up. That was my thought at the time.
But I was a little skeptical, I’ll just be as transparent as I can with you right there. I was thinking, “It sounds great. But what about this? And what about that?” And of course, I had to do more learning and more due diligence before I just dove headfirst into it. So I spent the whole year of 2015 learning more about it, networking with more people. Thankfully, these—what I refer to as mentors—these two gentlemen from the real estate meetup group, they were very transparent with me, they were very open about, “Look, we’ve been doing this for 20-plus years. This is how it’s worked for us. This is our past performance. These are the pros, the cons, the risks, etc.” And so it made it real for me to know there was a live human being talking to me, they were successful at it. And again, that’s what I always tell people – find a mentor doing what it is you want to do successfully, and pick their brain, whether you’ve got to pay for that or whether that’s free or… In this case, I just use small increments of their time; once a month at a meetup, I might pull them aside for 10 minutes, ask a few questions, I might make a phone call to them. “Hey, do you guys have five minutes? I’ve just got a few questions real quick for you.” That’s how I did my mentorship. I’m not telling you what you should do, but that worked for me in that circumstance.
Travis Watts: So moving forward from there, I took my single-family portfolio, what properties I had; I had some buy-and-hold’s, vacation rentals, fix and flips, and I decided, “Okay, I’m going to try this out.” And again you got to take that first step, man. It’s always risky, it’s always scary, but you’ve got to toe dip, you’ve got to put a little bit in; you’ve got to take a little risk. Investing always has risk.
So I was selling a property, a single-family home anyway, that was just happening regardless. So I thought, “Okay, I’m going to take half the equity that I’m pulling out of this property, that I’m going to be receiving in capital gains or whatever, and I’m going to put it in a real estate syndication.” That was the first deal I ever did. I can’t remember if it was 2015 or 2016, it was somewhere in that range. And I said, “I’m going to take six months, and I’m going to make sure this is a real thing, and a real strategy that really works, and that I’m not missing something here”, because quite frankly, it seemed too good to be true. And I got monthly cash flow. I got monthly reporting, and I was making approximately the same cash flow I was making otherwise doing everything myself. So I thought, “Ah, this is the key. This makes a ton of sense.”
From there, over about the next 18-24 months approximately, I sold off all my portfolio. Again, I’m not saying I did this right. I’m sure some of you’re thinking, “Didn’t you 1031 exchange?” Or, “Didn’t you do some kind of more lucrative strategy?” Look, man, I was just thrilled to get out of active management. I took the hit. It is what it is, maybe it wasn’t the smartest play. But for me, it was the right decision, at the right time. That’s what I needed to do for myself, and that’s all that matters. We all have an opinion, and the only opinion that matters is your own.
So one by one I’m selling these properties, I’m putting 50k into this multifamily syndication, 50k here, 25k there, 75k there, 100k there, until I got everything deployed. And something amazing happened. First of all, I’d built this cash flow machine; I’d really transitioned actually, in fact, from more of an equity play, where I was “buy low sell high” and flip properties, whatever, which is how most people invest, to a more cash flow focused model. This is where Robert Kiyosaki’s book started kicking back in; I invest for cash flow, then I started realizing the tax advantages, and my whole world changed during this time frame by 2016.
And you know what? Speaking of 2016, this is where the most miraculous thing happened. I was crunching numbers – I think it was through an Excel sheet, I was just calculating my net worth and what I had invested and my cash flow and blah, blah, blah, which I was kind of regularly keeping up with, but not that detailed, and a lot had happened in the last 12 months… And the most crazy thing happened. As I got to the bottom of the spreadsheet, I said, “Holy (beep),” I had more cash flow than I had expenses in my lifestyle, including rent, mortgage insurance, cell phone, food, travel, etc, gas. So this was financial independence. This is what this whole episode is about, is building to a point that you have more passive income than you have lifestyle expenses. And the reason that that’s so important is because you now have flexibility to do what you want to do with your lifestyle. And for me, as I mentioned with the oilfield, what did I want more than anything at that point? To get out of the oil field; I did not like that career, I did not like being in Saudi Arabia, I did not like swinging hammers and the dead of night and negative 20 degrees in Wyoming when we were out of state on a job. It was miserable. I cannot even tell you how miserable It was. It was miserable.
So I wanted to leave that career field and I finally had the opportunity to do it. So that’s the first thing I did is, I resigned from the oil company I worked at and I went to go pursue work that I was actually interested in. And funny enough, one of the first things I did is I went to go work for a brokerage firm. So I wanted to learn stocks, bonds, mutual funds… And the reason was really from a high level, I wanted to dive into the world of investing; I wanted to understand all different types of investments. I went to go get licensed in all these different capacities to work with clients. And I didn’t know what I didn’t know, but I knew what I wanted to pursue; it kind of sounds like a Dr. Seuss quote.
So what I’d created was a work-optional lifestyle. Now, I was far too young, in my opinion, to retire in the traditional sense. I didn’t want to go live in a 55-plus community, because I didn’t qualify for it. But all joking aside, I still wanted to work, so I thought, what do I want to do? Well, a) I want to pursue my passions; b) I want to help other people. I want to share this stuff. So I want to share everything, I wanted to talk about single-family, I wanted to talk about vacation rentals, I wanted to talk about syndications. I want to talk about stocks, bonds, and mutual funds and passive income and dividends and interest. I was going nuts. I had so much going through my head; you can ask my girlfriend at the time, who’s now my wife, and soon to be mother of our firstborn child in January, so we’re very thrilled about that, little side note… But man, she was having a hard time handling me at that time, because my brain was exploding. I had just so much energy. I was writing a book, and I was attending all these different real estate mentor groups, and I was talking her ear off every night about all the things I’d read and learned… And it was driving her nuts, let’s just put it that way. As it kind of simmered down, and as I kind of leveled out a little bit off that peak and that high, it really made a big impact that, “Yes, I want to dedicate to helping other people understand this stuff. I want to help people understand what it is I’m doing.” And I’m not telling you it’s easy. This is not a get rich quick, this is not a “Hey, in one year, you’re going to be a millionaire or decamillionaire.” I believe a lot of people can get to these points. But it takes time. It takes effort, it takes energy, and it starts with setting your goals. It starts with the four steps that I talked about, at least that’s what worked for me. Again, I’m not a financial advisor or tax advisor, legal advisor. Of course, seek licensed advice, but those are the things that I did to get to this point.
And I just want to tell you, this story, this journey is not really about me. Yes, that is my story. Yes, that’s all true. I just mean, this is a journey that’s open to you. This is simply a decision that you can make. This is simply a path that you can get on for your own reasons, for your own motivations, and I want to make that crystal clear. It’s a story about building your own financial independence. I’m sure you and I have different goals, different motivations, but one thing’s for sure – a little extra passive income in your life is certainly not going to hurt. And it’s not about money. We’re not sitting here talking about getting rich and making lots of money. We’re talking about creating a lifestyle where you have choices, where you can, as I mentioned, be more charitable, work part-time instead of full-time, get to retirement, send your kids through college, this is about your own life, not about being the richest person in the graveyard.
So you may not have been raised by frugal parents like I was, but I bet you could set some money aside to start investing for your future. You may not have worked in the oil industry, but I’m sure you’ve been overworked from time to time, or that you perhaps desire to work a little less. You may not desire the lifestyle that I have, but I can guarantee you, spending more time with friends, family and things that interest you, let’s put it that way – spending more time on things that interest you will add value to your life.
And look, you may already have financial independence. As I said at the beginning of the episode, you may already have a very desirable lifestyle, you may be just crushing it, and that’s great. But understand this too, that private placement investing, multifamily syndications could just be a diversification piece to your portfolio. Maybe you love your IRA and your 401(k) and the stock market and you’re all bullish on it, and it’s great. Well cool, but couldn’t you also maybe have some passive income in your portfolio as well? I don’t know. I’m not here to make the decision for you. I’m not that financial advisor. I’m just saying maybe diversification could fit in your portfolio if it’s right for you.
I seek to connect and to network with people who want to create a lifestyle on their own terms. This is not benefiting me other than self-expression and being able to kind of vent my ideas to you, but this is about you. And as I always say, if I can be a resource, feel free to reach out. I’m on all kinds of social media, reach out at joefairless.com or wherever. If I can just point you in the right direction, just anything I said in this, if you want more clarification, you want to dive in a little more detail, I’ll help you out where I can.
Thank you again so much for tuning in. Travis Watts, Actively Passive Show. Again, this was a difficult episode to come to terms with that I was going to air it, because it was about my story and I don’t like talking me, me, me, but hopefully you found a little I, I, I to relate to in the story.
I’m going to leave you with one final concept here at the end. In fact, it’s a quote; I like ending with quotes… And that is, “Is what you’re doing today getting you closer to where you want to be tomorrow?”
Have a best ever week, everybody. We’ll talk to you next time.
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