September 19, 2021

JF2574: Best Practices for Out-of-State Management with Keke Williams

Full-time investor Keke Williams grew up surrounded by real estate as her family did property restorations. Now, she’s involved in mobile home parks, multifamily, and even foreign opportunities. Keke is talking about what it was like moving from fix-and-flips and having full control into mobile home parks and being part of a syndication, best practices for out-of-state management, and the benefits of foreign opportunities. 

Keke Williams Real Estate Background:

  • Full-time real estate investor and licensed Colorado broker
  • Equity partner — GP side; LP investor; turnkey farmland owner (passive income stream); STR portfolio owner
  • Fix/flipped 7 higher-end houses; 2 directly-owned apartment buildings; currently owns & is in various stages of forcing appreciation in 1,000+ doors of large multifamily syndication projects across 3 cities; LP investor stake in 3 agribusiness/farming private equity syndications; owns a couple of hectares of coconut & lime farms in Latin America; 2 STR properties — 1 in Florida & 1 in Mexico
  • Based in Denver, CO
  • Say hi to her at:
  • Best Ever Book: The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom


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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Ash Patel, and I’m with today’s guest, Keke Williams. Keke is joining us from Denver, Colorado. She’s an equity partner in a number of passive investments, and has fixed and flipped several properties. Keke also owns several properties and farms around the world.

Keke, thank you so much for joining us today, and how are you?

Keke Williams: Absolutely, Ash. I’m really glad to be here. And as a matter of fact, today, I am actually in Brooklyn, New York—

Ash Patel: Awesome.

Keke Williams: —visiting some friends here. So… Nice to get out of the smoky wildfire air of Denver right now.

Ash Patel: Very cool. We’re glad to have you. Keke, before we get started, can you tell the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?

Keke Williams: Absolutely. Real Estate has kind of been in my life since I was a little kid. My parents were both very handy, so we did a lot of restoring of properties, whether it was on our family farm, or what have you. So that’s kind of always been in my background. As you mentioned, I did some fix and flipping early on, it was a great way before I became an accredited investor to actually build up sources of capital so that I could become accredited, and then get into projects with more scale.

So once I was able to do that I really experimented with anything from clusters of single-family homes out of state, because I was living in California, where it’s very hard to cash flow… And then also did like a syndication in mobile home park community, did a development in Reno, Nevada, of executive single-family homes for sort of the Tesla battery factory folks that are all moving that direction, from Silicon Valley, California area, a lot of them… And then experiment with farmlands, because I had that in my background, having grown up on sort of a hobby farm. But we leased out a lot of our land to a lot of the farmers that were full-time farmers. So I love short-term rentals too, because I love to enjoy the real estate that I’m helping to transform… But really kind of took a journey of experimenting with my own money so I could make my mistakes… And now what we really focus on is my partner, Peter, and I, we have come from these corporate backgrounds; him in tech and tech startups and Wall Street banking, and me, for PwC management consulting and a lot of marketing and corporate sales, and it was like, “Okay, we’ve gone through full cycle on these projects ourselves.” Value-add multifamily was one of the things that we tried, and our best learning from that was, we realized we made a lot of mistakes, but we still came out smelling like a rose, because an upmarket will rise all boats.

But what we learned about ourselves is that we didn’t really like getting our hands deep in the rehabs. So we choose partners, and we focus on educating investors building the competence and the confidence to really get into real estate, and do it with courage and consistency, so that you’re really getting to the results, right? Because you can get stuck in analysis paralysis and get nervous about plunking down 50,000-100,000 grand into a deal… So that’s what we really do, is we cater towards the investors, and then we help our general partners by being part of their team and bringing blocks of capital, that’s smart capital, if you will, educated, understanding what they’re doing, so they move with swiftness… And they decide to get in and they get in and they just plow right on forward, and they become repeat investors because of that, the education.

Ash Patel: Allright, Keke. That’s a lot to take in.

Keke Williams: Yeah.

Ash Patel: Let’s try to get a bit of a timeline here. How many years have you been investing full-time in real estate?

Keke Williams: Full-time, since about 2015.

Ash Patel: Okay, and when did you go from fix and flips to the mobile home park?

Keke Williams: Fix and flips started in late 2014, early 2015, and I did the mobile home park – probably I want to say that was 2017.

Ash Patel: Okay, and what was that like?

Keke Williams: Well, the mobile home park, I actually had a friend that I already knew, that had been a commercial broker for 30 years… And as most smart real estate brokers do, they are investors as well themselves; they’re not focusing on just the transaction, but they look opportunistically for investments. So he had started a group that was focusing specifically on mobile homes and mobile home parks in Midwest areas. This one happened to be in Illinois. So it really helped me learn about the whole syndication process. It was the first time I was in a syndication and I sort of understood, “Oh, okay, what’s my role as a limited partner, versus the general partners? Do I have a say in things? No, I don’t”, but that’s the whole point, you’re getting a professional, educated team that knows that asset class… So that was really kind of like my training ground before my first real syndicated multifamily deal—when I say “multifamily” meaning apartment buildings, apartment communities; that mobile home park taught me that first lesson. And I look at mobile home parks as the lowest tier of multifamily, if you will, they’re not subsidized housing, but it’s kind of like when everybody falls down a peg in society, in terms of tough economy, losing jobs or what have you, usually, the least expensive place for people to live is in that mobile home park.

So learning the nuances of that park-owned homes versus tenant-owned homes, the pros and cons of all of those… So I was like, layers upon layers upon layers. So it reinforced for me, “Ah, partnering. You’ve got to have partners that focus and can really divide the roles and the responsibilities in each of these projects.” Because they’re kind of like consulting, where I’m like, “Okay, I’m used to this.” You’ve got a project, you get a defined goal, endpoint, outcome… You’ve got the timeline along the way, you’ve got to break down the work, figure out who’s doing what parts, right? So definitely made very clear to me, “Ah, I’ve got to take a corporate approach to this.” This isn’t just one single-family home rental or one fix and flip; you need systems, you need processes for evaluating what’s a good way to look at an investment, what are the sort of rules of thumb that you should be targeting, and how do you methodically go about an approach that’s very step by step.

Ash Patel: Are you still in that mobile home investment?

Keke Williams: Yes, we are still on that mobile home investment.

Ash Patel: How are the returns on that?

Keke Williams: The cash flow on it is great. We’ve gotten through the point — we went through all of the value-add work of improving the park, improving the tenancy, putting in better on-site management, and now we kind of have just been enjoying the cash flow and waiting to see what happens in the market before jumping the gun and offloading it. I think right now everybody’s like, “Let’s just hold tight. That’s really good cash flow.”

Ash Patel: Yeah, that’s a tough one. The market’s hot for mobile homes, but the cash flow—

Keke Williams: I know, it’s kind of back and forth, but it depends. But it’s also hot for mobile homes more in the South-East than in—

Ash Patel: Illinois.

Keke Williams: Illinois, Indiana, what have you, right? It’s in the warmer areas, just like we’re seeing, in the multifamily, and the whole migration that we see happening around the US.

Ash Patel: Yeah. Keke, you were in Colorado, and you did a development deal in Reno; tell me about that.

Keke Williams: Well, at the time that I went into that development deal, I was still living in California, in the San Francisco Bay Area. But again, I developed the comfort right away with investing out of state, because when I first really got into it full-time, I was in California, and I just knew – fix and flips,  it’s super stressful, because it’s a lot of hard money and expensive to get into… But if you’ve got a good, solid team, you can make those chunks of capital, you can make those returns. But in terms of holding it long-term, just the cash flow just wasn’t enough to interest me. So I became comfortable investing out of state, and Reno was kind of right next door, because it’s Lake Tahoe, it’s kind of the way we look at it. And a lot of San Franciscans are weekenders in Lake Tahoe, either the summer or the winter, just for fun and recreation… So knew people in that market… It was familiar enough that I felt comfortable getting into.

Ash Patel: Was that a syndication?

Keke Williams: That was in a syndication, and I actually learned of it through a group that I was doing single-family home investing with; and what they do is they find good operators, rehabbers/property managers in various markets that they think the market dynamics makes sense, and then they introduce those rehab property management folks to a group of investors to say, “Hey, do you want to buy homes and we’ll manage them for you in this area?” So that is one of the things I started with as well. And then that group was like, “Hey, we have a bigger, more interesting thing. It’s only for accredited, but it’s something you might want to examine,” and it actually was presented at that group, and so we went and did the due diligence ourselves, and went out to the property, and we knew about the Tesla battery factory and kind of the gross move in that direction…

Ash Patel: And what was that development? Was it single-family homes?

Keke Williams: Single-family homes. And sort of higher scale single-family homes meant to be for the executives coming to work in those factories, kind of high-end engineers, and stuff like that. So it’s taking longer to get the whole way through completion of the community, because it’s a couple of hundred homes… However, they’re getting much higher price points than they expected to get. So it’s one of those things as an investor, when you go into these syndications and you don’t have the control about when you’re going to exit and when you’re going to regain your liquidity, you’ve got to have faith that that team — and this guy’s been developing for 40 years, longtime family developer… So it’s like, “Okay, I’ve got to trust that they’re going to make the shifts and the right decisions.” Because a lot of real estate is about pivoting when things don’t go exactly as planned. You’ve got to have best, most likely, and worst-case scenarios, and a sense of how you would pivot if you need to. So that’s what’s going on with that one. It’s been really interesting.

Ash Patel: What are the expected returns, and what is the hold time for that investment?

Keke Williams: So let me think about what the hold time for that one is… I want to say it’s a four-year total hold time is what’s estimated, right? And we’re tracking slightly behind that. But again, we’re getting more per door. And the returns on that are in the upper 20’s.

Ash Patel: IRR?

Keke Williams: Yeah.

Ash Patel: Yeah.

Break: [11:27] to [13:28]

Ash Patel: Do you get paid out as homes are selling, or do you get paid out at the end?

Keke Williams: At the end.

Ash Patel: Okay.

Keke Williams: Yeah, so it’s patient capital. So one of the things I like to tell people to think about, depending on what their capital position is and what they have to invest, is — a lot of people are like, “Okay, well, I’m going to retire when I reach this number.” I’m not about one number. I’m about a number of streams of income and the timing of those cash flows and what that monthly cash flow ends up being… Because that’s kind of how we live, right? So it’s easier to map to that. So that’s a long-term cash flow, but it’s going to be a big ka-ching coming back, which of course, then will be the problem of getting it re-oriented quickly and making more money. But I like to have a balance of those longer-term bets, and then the closer in, easy churn, churn, churn, you know that cash flow’s coming, which private lending has been great for that. I’ve loved that part.

Ash Patel: Let’s get into that in here in a second. Are there any returns prior to exiting that Reno syndication?

Keke Williams: Nothing is paid out until exit.

Ash Patel: Okay, interesting. So definitely looking for patient investors.

Keke Williams: Exactly.

Ash Patel: Yeah, there’s a lot of them out there. Good. So now back to the lending… Tell me about that.

Keke Williams: So how I got comfortable with that is actually when I first started buying clusters of single-family homes outside of California, one of the places I did it was in Houston. The developer team there is actually a husband and wife team. The husband does the sort of development, rehab construction, all that stuff, and the finding of distressed assets and that sort of thing to transform… And then the wife runs the property management arm. So I was already investing as a single-family homeowner that was then being managed by their property management arm, so I had familiarity with how they ran their business, how systematized they were, and I could just see they were super buttoned up and knew what they were doing.

So in a random conversation with the developer about next opportunity, yada, yada, and he’s like, “Hey, by the way, for some folks that are already investing with us, we offer the opportunity to serve as our hard money lender, if you will. And we’ll do it for a loan for 12 months – that’s how we write the terms – but often, you’re paid back within four months, maybe six months, and you are getting monthly interest payments along the way.” So that was quite nice, because it’s predictable cash flow, it’s also really easy to do out of a retirement account if you have a self-directed retirement account… And I had experience with this lender; plus the fact that I’m now holding as collateral that piece of property. So if there is the default, I’ve got a second out. And I first started as a banker, I was a commercial lender; that was my first real job out of college. So I could understand this, right? I could wrap my head around this and go, “Okay. Yeah, I’m in for that.”

Ash Patel: Back to your roots, just much higher rates and much higher points.

Keke Williams: Yeah, that’s right.

Ash Patel: Is this a typical 2 and 12 type deal? 2 and 10, two and 12…

Keke Williams: Yeah, pretty much.

Ash Patel: Yeah. And would you consider doing more hard money loans?

Keke Williams: I think that I would rather not be on the paper side right now. I do keep some of it in my portfolio. And yeah, absolutely, if I know the person, if I know their track record, what have you… Right now, I’m in a little point of just sort of gathering more cash to get into bigger assets… So I think that the private lending always plays; I won’t always do it as a hard money… I might take a little bit less interest and have a longer-term payoff, because it’s more of a — I can sort of set it and forget it a little bit.

Ash Patel: Sure.

Keke Williams: The difficult thing about the hard money lending is that it is churning a lot. So you’ve got to be ready to either redeploy it with that same developer, or redeploy it with somebody else quickly… So sometimes it’s nice to have the quick liquidity come back, but sometimes it’s a challenge, because you’ve got to find somewhere else to put it and get it to work quickly for you. I don’t like it to sit idle.

Ash Patel: Yeah, I want to ask you about your out-of-state management. What are some best practices that have helped you, and what are some mistakes that you’ve learned hard lessons from?

Keke Williams: Well, definitely, if we’re talking in the single-family home realm, where I first instituted out-of-state management, the hardest thing is, you think it’s going to be passive, but it’s not passive; you really have to manage the managers. When you move up to multifamily, what I’ve found is that you have usually a more sophisticated group of people doing the management… So they have a lot more clear systems and processes and more stability of staff. So that’s what I’ve found in this sort of lower-scale or lower tier property managers. That’s why I’ve found single-family home difficult, is you’ve really got to stay on top of them, you’ve got to manage them. You want to, every month, be looking over those reports that are coming out to you and right away asking questions on anything… You’re like, “Wait, what? That doesn’t make sense.” You need to set your thresholds for if you have repair items and such… Okay, at what point is the property manager able to just make those decisions on your behalf? And at what point do you say, “No, when we get to that dollar threshold, I want to see what you’re doing and understand first before I give the yes.” So kind of instituting a lot of checkpoints, and then thresholds for how decisions are made… And a bookkeeper. Because if you’re going to have these clusters of homes, which is what I had in Texas, and Florida and Pennsylvania, and I was still kind of doing work and consulting projects and other stuff like that on the side, it’s like, “Oh, gosh…” Yeah, you really have to set aside on your calendar… “Every month, this day when these reports come out, these are things we’re going to do. Here’s what I’m going to hand to the bookkeeper,” and try and make the administrative aspect of it easier through systems and processes. If you let it slide, it just feels like a snowball and you’re overwhelmed. Yeah.

Ash Patel: Yeah, good points.

Keke Williams: Yeah.

Break: [19:31] to [21:34]

Ash Patel: We have to dive into the farms.

Keke Williams: Yeah.

Ash Patel: I’d love to hear your farm experience.

Keke Williams: Well, as usual, you usually make your first mistakes on your first couple of deals, and I went right for outside of the Americas. My family personally owns a good bit of farmland and such… So I saw this opportunity because my partner and I love to travel. And we were traveling down in South America, met up with another English guy – my partner’s English – and we’re like, “Oh, okay.” He was doing this stuff on these farms. And we’re like, “Oh, wow, that’s really interesting.” And he made a great case for why farmland in the emerging markets is such a powerful investment opportunity… Because in the US, it’s quite low returns, and it’s big crops, like wheat and soybeans and things like that that people are mostly focused on investing in farmland. And I thought, “Okay, well, I want direct ownership, but I want more premium crops.” So the first place I felt, “Okay, it kind of seems like America, it’s on the US dollar, a lot of Americans down here” was Panama. But ends up—now, I still own that land, but it is not yielding like it should be.

So what I discovered in the process is I got very enamored with the seed-to-harvest part of the process. What are they growing? They were doing avocados and mangoes, and who doesn’t love avocados and mangoes? I’m like, “These are great. These are growing demand fruits. This is perfect.” They had irrigation. They had infrastructure. They had lots of good things in place in terms of the growing that I thought, “Okay, this should work out well. They’ve got farm management teams and so forth.”

But what I didn’t think to ask enough questions about was from the harvest-to-sale, because as the investor, just like with the Reno, Nevada, you’re not paid until those homes are sold. [unintelligible [00:23:26].05]

Ash Patel: Yeah, talk about managing from a distance…

Keke Williams: Right?! Exactly. So now I will say, quarterly, I’m usually down in Latin America, because of course, we’re safeguarding our investors’ investments as well. But in that first one in Panama, thankfully, I have this notion of just conservativeness, where I don’t go into any new asset class without having gone into it myself, and figured out what I did wrong, so that when I make the mistakes, it’s with my money, not other people’s money. Isn’t that what you always strive for, right? You want to protect your investors, make those mistakes yourself because you can more quickly pivot, you’re more entrenched in the industry.

But that’s where we fell down in the process, was vetting how well they were going to get that sold in the market, and thinking about the fact that, “Oh, if they don’t have export-quality fruit, if they cannot figure out all the export pieces, do you have an internal market that by default can absorb that fruit and that produce?”

Unfortunately for Panama, not really; it’s 4 million people. It’s a small country. So learning, going on, going forward… So we’re still working through this investment and we’re like, “Okay, well, that’s our own stuff. It’s going to be a long road, but we’ll get there eventually.”

We met another group though that was doing early-stage ag development. They were doing private equity projects to see the early-stage development. Just kind of like with that Reno syndication, there is a lot of early-stage stuff. We’re planting trees. You don’t just harvest it the next season, right? You’ve got four years of growth, all the infrastructure to put in place; the seedlings going from seeds to saplings to putting it in the ground, making sure they make it through this first couple of years and are still healthy; there’s going to be a certain percentage of mortality rate, so going back in, and replanting, and that sort of stuff.

So with this group, what we did is we said, “Okay, well, let’s just go into one of these private equity investments and watch and see how it does.” So we’ve gone on to do probably five investments with this group since 2016… And figured out that, first of all, they were transparent with what was happening. Because with farming, there’s way more dynamics and multifamily; things go wrong. There’s lots of things outside of your control, so we felt like, okay, they’re making all the right efforts to manage the risk, to have pivots that they’re ready to take, and they’re transparently communicating frequently with the investors to let them know what’s going on, so that people can make educated decisions about like, “Oh, okay, that’s what’s happening in this piece of my portfolio. Now, what am I going to do over here, based upon how well we’re tracking the plan?”

So really what we’ve been able to accomplish with a group of us that were early-stage capital is we’ve now been able to see these farms literally, to the point that we have lime farms, we’ll be having avocados come next, we’ve built a line pack house… So we actually have built that harvest-to-sale piece that was missing with the first investors we invested with – we have that now. Because while we were in those early-stage projects, getting everything up and running, getting the trees to a point that they could produce a commercial harvest, at the same time, this group was masterfully working on taking already existing farms, learning the processing, the packing and building out the brand recognition in their Ludhiana fruit brand that is recognized by the wholesale distributors up and down the eastern seaboard; the Walmarts, the Costcos, the Trader Joe’s, the Albertsons, where our fruit is now in these stores, and it’s super cool and exciting to see that.

And the really cool full-circle thing is now that we took that early risk, that group of us with the patient capital in the beginning, now we’ve been able to basically create a turnkey cash flowing farmland model that’s sort of like that initial single-family home model that we started with turnkeying cash-flowing single-family homes with the tenant already in it. Great, easy-peasy. Not quite so passive.

This though is passive, because you have no tenants, no trash, no toilets, and you have a Farm Owners Association. Think about an HOA who’s managing your condo association, all the community amenities and such. We have a Farm Owners Association that manages the farm managers. So they’re doing the oversight, weekly, monthly meeting, going through the numbers with the farm managers, knowing any hiccups, are we on track for our expenses? Where are the fruit sales? Blah, blah, blah.

But on the other side, they also manage what’s called an off-take agreement, which is the buying of our fruit, and pushing it through the channel into the actual supermarkets.

Ash Patel: That answers my question on, how do you manage remote workers? But yeah, that does it.

Keke Williams: Partners. You’ve got to have expert partners, right?

Ash Patel: 100%. Keke, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Keke Williams: My best real estate investing advice ever? Okay, it’s really start today. Even if it’s small, start today. And just try to consistently hold yourself accountable to taking action. And if you have trouble doing that yourself, that’s part of what we help investors do. Because it’s hard in a vacuum… But start today. I don’t care if it’s small, just start.

Ash Patel: Absolutely. Keke, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Keke Williams: I am.

Ash Patel: Let’s do it. Keke, what’s the best ever book you recently read?

Keke Williams: Best Ever book that I’ve recently read? Okay, it’s interesting, because I recently re-read it, and it has nothing to do with real estate… It’s the book called The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. It’s really just sort of a book about mindset and how you face life. Because the four agreements are to not take anything personally… So a lot of times when people react and whatever, and we take it personally, that whole thing is a lot more about them than it is about us, and what’s going on in their world. So don’t take it also personal. Be impeccable with your word, meaning, have integrity with yourself, right? Hold yourself accountable, and then hold yourself accountable to others. If you say you’re going to be there at that time, be there at that time. If you say you’re going to research that thing, research that thing. So be impeccable with your word and don’t take anything personally. Don’t make assumptions, because as my mom always said, “Makes an ass out of you and me.” And then always do your best. And what “always do your best” really means is stop hanging on to the baggage. Okay, I screwed up in that second. You know what? Let it go. Move it forward.

Ash Patel: That’s a great mindset.

Keke Williams: And every moment is a new moment, right? Yeah.

Ash Patel: Keke, what’s the best ever way you like to give back?

Keke Williams: Well, there’s a group actually… So you mentioned I was from Denver, Colorado; there’s a group called Energize Colorado, which is a fabulous non-profit organization headed by a woman by the name of Wendy Lea. Actually, I knew her back in Silicon Valley days, because she was in California. I think she’s originally maybe from Boulder.

So Energize Colorado is really just sort of a mentorship organization trying to help budding entrepreneurs and match them with other people who have been entrepreneurs or have been in a space that they could use some guidance and some coaching from, and connecting them together. So they do a really good vetting process of looking at the entrepreneurs and what they need, who are people in the network who can help serve… And it’s super fun, and I meet so many fabulous people doing it; it’s really great.

Ash Patel: Keke, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?

Keke Williams: Easiest way is just to go right to our website. So it’s, and right on that homepage, there’s an orange button somewhere on there that says “Book a Call.” So let’s chat. I find different people are coming into real estate at different places, with different levels of knowledge; accredited, non-accredited, interested in single-family homes, interested in farms… It’s kind of all over the board. The easiest way to sort through that, right at the get-go, is just to have a nice informal chat like this and try and figure out, what are you trying to accomplish? Because I’ll let you know right away if I can help you accomplish it. And if I can’t, I’m going to steer you in a direction that maybe was something else that I’ve tried, that I know is a good resource for you and I’m going to send you off to do your work in that direction.

Ash Patel: Thank you so much for your time today, taking us through your journey, which is very unique, with fix and flips, mobile homes, land development, farmland… Thank you for sharing your story with us today.

Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us and have a best ever day.

Keke Williams: Thanks, Ash.

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