June 3, 2019

JF1733: Selling More Than One Home Per Day For The Last Eight Years with Dan Plowman

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“I don’t want to list your home” – that’s the phrase that started everything for Dan years ago. As a new agent, Dan had to find a way to get some business from all of the FSBO’s in his area. Rather than door knocking and asking to list their home, he’d simply ask if he could take some buyers through the home, and help with the paperwork if they had a buyer. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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“The biggest thing would be to implement a system, track everything you’re doing and eliminate the things that don’t work” – Dan Plowman


Dan Plowman Real Estate Background:


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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast, where we only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Dan Plowman. How are you doing today?

Dan Plowman: I’m well, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Joe Fairless: I’m glad to hear that, and you’re welcome. A little bit about Dan – he has 28 years of real estate experience. When he started, he was rookie of the year, his first year selling homes. For the last 8 years, he sold more than one home per day. Let me just restate that – for the last 8 years, he sold more than one home per day. Based in Whitby, Ontario. With that being said, Dan, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

Dan Plowman: Sure, absolutely. I came from the HVAC business originally, and although I was a pretty good mechanic, I was much better – I realized early on – with people; I enjoyed the sales side of things when I was doing heating and air conditioning. Any opportunity I had to talk to people was where I tended to shine. I think that’s important for everybody; the sooner we can figure where our unique abilities lie, the better or more happier we’re gonna be for a long period of time.

I transitioned into real estate, I got my license, and I never looked back. Actually, for the first ten years I tried to figure out as an individual how to get off that hamster wheel, being so busy sometimes that I didn’t have a life, and vice-versa – sometimes living life too much and I’m going broke, and I have to go back to real estate. It’s like that cyclical up and down that salespeople tend to enter into, especially commission salespeople.

I figured out a little bit how to leverage people, technology, marketing, and things went fairly well. We’ve developed and built a team that does extremely well, and here we are, selling more than a home a day, for the last eight years in a row, and we’re literally dominating our marketplace. I don’t say that to boast or brag, I say that as a testament to how well the systems works.

Joe Fairless: We’ll talk about the systems here in a little bit. Clearly, we need to talk about the systems you have in place. Let’s talk about your Rookie of the Year year. That was 28 years ago, yes?

Dan Plowman: Yeah, I started November of ’89, so really my first full year was 1990.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so first year, 1990, you achieved Rookie of the Year for selling homes in your area; what were some things that you did that other rookies were not doing?

Dan Plowman: I banged on doors. Talk about old school. I was in a market at that time (1990) when interest rates were 16% to 18%…

Joe Fairless: Oh, wow.

Dan Plowman: And people were handing the keys back to the bank and walking away… And as a result, people who did wanna sell their homes or needed to sell their homes but didn’t wanna go into bankruptcy or quitclaims – they were selling privately. And here was me, sitting there, cold-calling out of a phonebook, hoping to find people who might give me a lead or give me a listing. My fingers were bleeding from dialing so much… And I’m driving, passing by for sale by owners, and of course, they always said “No agents, please…” Everybody in this area seemed to have a pit-bull too, by the way. A big dog. So you didn’t wanna door-knock those…

Joe Fairless: [laughs]

Dan Plowman: But it was kind of insane, really. I’m trying to find leads and I’m driving by all these leads. One day I got the courage up to go and knock on a door. They slammed the door in my face, just like most calls that I was making – they’d slam the phone down. I learned a lot of swear words from prospecting cold-calling… And that was my intention, I wanted to get leads. So I changed the pattern in the language that I was using when I started to door-knock for sale by owners, and I’d get very well by them. When I started to knock on the door, the first thing out of my mouth was “I don’t wanna list your home”, and they were taken back by this, why you hear that. Because they can always tell you’re a real estate agent, for some reason, right?

Joe Fairless: Yup.

Dan Plowman: And when they heard that from me, they said “Then why are you here?” and I said “I’m here because we sell a lot of homes in the area. My company that I work with does.” And they did. And they said “Well, why are you here?” I said, “Listen, I work with for sale by owners. I wanna help you. If you can find someone on your own, that’s fine, but I also have people I’d like to bring to your home. I know you don’t wanna pay commission, and you don’t have to. If we find the perfect match for your home, you’re gonna be happy because you’ll maybe use me to buy your next home, so it’s win/win.” So right away they were warming up to me.

The point is I’d get through their house; more than half wouldn’t sell anyway, and guess who they listed with? It was me. And I also got their list of buyers that they had coming through. In exchange, all I did was offered to help, and if they did get someone or secured someone, I’d help them with the paperwork, maybe save them a few hundred bucks that went to the lawyer. So it was just a little system and a program I’d put together, and my first three months I’d listed six homes.

Joe Fairless: Wow. What a smart approach. I wanna make sure I heard that correctly… So you first said “I don’t wanna list your home”, and then their guard is no longer up as much. Then they ask “Why are you here?” and then you say “We do sell a lot of homes in this area, so I might be able to…” — go through that one more time, will you?

Dan Plowman: Sure, I will. My language and my scripting – my training company Dan Plowman Coaching goes through all this, but the specific language… If we’re not telling people what they wanna hear, or at least addressing what it is they feel is an issue – because I think a for sale by owner, we can all agree they’re pretty much saying “I want my home sold, and I believe there’s no value in a real estate salesperson, so I’m gonna do it myself and net more money.” That’s what they’re saying. And if we agree that that’s what they’re saying, and then knock on their door and try to give them a different opinion, you’re just gonna have a fight, a confrontation out the gate.

Joe Fairless: Yes.

Dan Plowman: And that’s what most people would do – they would knock on the door and say “Hey, you should list with me, because I’m this, or because my company is that”, and that’s not what they wanna hear. They’ve already made their decision, they don’t need you to try to convince them otherwise… And I believe that people still with their for sale by owner sign on the lawn have some fear, in that maybe they’re not doing it right; they’re not sold. They see other Sold signs from other real estate, so what are they doing wrong…? So when you offer them help and acknowledge it’s gonna be for free, their guard will come down. And there’s a certain language to use when doing that. But 9 out of 10 homes that I would knock on using the right language, I would end up with them touring the home, showing me through, and they wouldn’t let the pit-bull go on me. So we became friends.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so I got that, but in terms of the specific value exchange, so what they’re getting from this and what you’re getting – what is that, exactly?

Dan Plowman: The value exchange was “I’m going to send clients your way. We’re going to drive by your home anyway, and my clients are gonna ask if I know about your home. I’d like to be able to talk highly of your home, and send these clients your way. I can’t always find the buyer the perfect home. Yours may be a perfect match for one of my clients. And I’m okay with that, because I know if I do match a buyer for you, from my client base, you’ll probably be so happy and work with me you’re gonna buy another house anyway.”

Joe Fairless: Oh, okay.

Dan Plowman: “Not to mention, in exchange, I know you have a massive list of people who come through your home that is not a perfect fit for them. I want those names and numbers. It doesn’t cost them any money to use my services when buying a home as well.”

Joe Fairless: Beautiful.

Dan Plowman: Unless they can believe it’s truly a win/win and there’s not a one-sided catch, unless it doesn’t make sense, you will be turned away.

Joe Fairless: Yeah. So smart. How many homes did you send your clients to to purchase a for sale by owner?

Dan Plowman: It’s happened. It’s happened.

Joe Fairless: How many times, approximately?

Dan Plowman: I can remember vividly in my first year there were three. And that’s pretty high. Remember, I’m not doing a lot of deals my first year anyway, but my focus was for sale by owners. The market was ripe for it, because interest rates were high, a lot of people were trying to sell privately, and here’s me listing homes when other people are struggling to even find the next client, nevermind a listing. So it works, but it’s give and take, too.

Joe Fairless: Yup. So smart. Thank you for sharing that. So that’s Rookie of the Year… Holy cow, that’s 28 years ago, so clearly you’ve learned a couple things over the last 28 years… What are some things that you know now, that if you had employed them during rookie of the year, you would have done at least twice as much as what you did that year?

Dan Plowman: Wow, what a big question. It’s a great question. I often talk about this actually when I’m on stage, or speaking to other large groups… And one of the big things [unintelligible [00:08:33].05] I mean, isn’t that the key to life? “If I knew then what I know now…” I think that’s what you’re asking me.

Joe Fairless: Yup.

Dan Plowman: The biggest thing would be to have implemented and systemized what I was doing that was working, tracking everything I did, and eliminating the things that didn’t work. That’s the big one.

Joe Fairless: Okay.

Dan Plowman: And that’s a big question. I know I just gave you a quick, short answer, but there’s a lot to that.

Joe Fairless: Will you elaborate?

Dan Plowman: Absolutely. I know now that throughout my first ten years I sporadically did some great things, and I sporadically did some terrible things. And when you’re not tracking as a business owner and you’re not aware of what leads you’re purchasing or where you’re investing time and getting return or not getting return from, you’re spinning the wheels; you’re on that hamster wheel and you’ll never get off, and you’re just kind of spitting out the good stuff when it happens.  But you need to identify as quickly as possible where your highest and best use is, giving you the biggest return.

A prime example would be a real estate salesperson who goes to a convention, and he passes by all these booths, and he’s given all of these new, wonderful opportunities – “Try this, do this, do this…” And I was famous for buying them all. I’d  buy into everything. The easiest people in the world to sell stuff to are salespeople, right? So I would buy everything, and I had no idea what was working and what was not… So when I learned to systemize, and I’d track everything – I tracked my results and everything that happens – I’m able with my business plan at the end of the year to decide what we’re going to maybe pull some money out of and put more over here, because it worked well, and we are able to then see what market trends, what’s gonna change this year that’s gonna be sure to continue to have that same trending success… Or “Hey, this is done. I can see how this has died the last three years, because we’ve tracked it.”

So for me, to look back and implement wonderful things that I did really well, and to be aware of them, I think the biggest thing I would have done early on was track and be more aware.

Joe Fairless: Well, in that first year you mentioned some things that worked well and didn’t. The “didn’t” part sounds like from earlier it was the Yellow Pages, cold-calling, and what did work was the door-knocking. Anything else you’d like to mention for the first year? Then we’re gonna skip ahead to current…

Dan Plowman: Sure. I quickly realized that it was about relationships… And it’s really tough on the phone when you’re talking to people, even when people did start to engage and talk to you. It’s tough to engage to the point of making an impression. Two things are happening. One, quite often they’re just reciprocating and being kind, and the other thing that’s happening is me as a person on the phone, I’m trying to figure out if this is a viable lead; does this person have a motivation of any sort to move in the next two years? And people are being kind sometimes. Most people just hang up because you’re wasting their time when you’re cold-calling, which is nice and I appreciate that… But for the most part I realized that the real value in relationship building and the real ability to pull that off happens when you’re face-to-face, not on the phone. So that’s why the prospecting, I realized, wasn’t  a great thing… So I started to pick up open houses, even when I didn’t have a lot of listings early on, from other people in my office.

I would open-house to meet people face-to-face, because I think most people in sales – their unique abilities shine the most when you’re eye-to-eye, face-to-face. And let’s be honest, we’re in the relationship building business. We’re not salespeople. We just need to meet people and impress upon them, and there’s language you can use to break patterns when people are meeting. Like the for sale by owner example I gave you; there’s similar scripts and languages we can use that will stop people from ripping through your open house and not looking you in the eye, because they don’t wanna get caught, or they give you that conditioned response, “I have an agent.” That’s what they do, that’s what human nature is. There’s things you can say to break those patterns, so that you can stop people and they wanna get to know you. I think that’s the key.

I started doing four open houses a week, and as a result, I met a lot of people, and the more people you meet, the more relationships you build… And I genuinely believed in my heart that deals were just a natural by-product of more relationships and more impressions.

Joe Fairless: I certainly agree with that. Those four open houses a week you were doing – were they all of those your listings?

Dan Plowman: No, quite often not. Most people work amongst brokerages that have a lot of listings, and there are agents who’d happily let you sit and do an open house with their sign on the lawn, and who cares…? We know people coming through open houses aren’t there to buy the home; let’s be honest. It’s maybe 1 in 100 people that actually buy the house they go through for the first time or through an open house. It’s an opportunity to meet people. And when we look at our business and understand the time that we’re spending doing whatever we’re doing, if we just shift the purpose of why we’re there, it’ll help us understand what we’re doing.

Too many people sit in open houses and think “Oh, it’s just a free-for-all to go through.” Well, you might as well have the [unintelligible [00:13:09].24] That’s not what it’s for. It’s to meet people and to impress upon them what opportunity you have that’s gonna help them, whether they’re buying or selling, and to give your value props as quick as you can, but not so early that you push them back. So how do you make an impression on people that basically they walk away — people think one of two things: nothing of you, or they remember you made them feel good. Because people rarely remember what we say to them. They always remember how we made them feel.

Joe Fairless: Alright, so you or your team member have a house listed currently, and it’s an open house. My wife and I happen to be in Whitby, Ontario and house-shopping, and we go in. We talk, and then we leave. What’s your process for after the open house and after you’ve talked to someone?

Dan Plowman: It’s amazing, because quite often you’ll go through open houses and you won’t even talk to the agent, because they’ll say something like this “Hey, thanks for coming. Go through, and if you have any questions, I’m here.” And you’ll get to the door, put your shoes on and say “Thank you, goodbye.” And most agents don’t know what to do.

What the industry has done is we’ve slowly started to implement what’s called a sign-in sheet for security reasons. “Leave your name and number…” “Sure, I’ll leave my name. Joe Smith, and a false number, whatever.” So it’s just maybe a little way to break the ice, but it doesn’t work well at all.

What I’ve done with my partners on my team – we do open houses every weekend – is for three or four bucks you can have a swag bag, just a paper bag made with your logo on it, with that fancy paper come out the top… I don’t care if it’s photocopies of coloring sheets for kids with crayons from a dollar store. But you put 30 or 40 of these bags in a point of reference that people can see when they walk in, on the dining room table to the left; they see them, and they realize they’re getting free stuff. People love free stuff.

If you’ve ever been to a sporting event, we’ve all seen the big guy with a beer in his hand, spilling it over the top of the kids reaching to catch the towel before the kid gets it, or the free T-shirt… You know what I’m saying. So people love free stuff. This is called breaking the pattern. They walk through the house… I’ll give you an example – two weeks ago one of my partners was doing an open house and they said “I can’t believe how well the swag works.” They were talking to someone at the door, they were giving them a free little bag, and the people that were ready to leave stood behind in line like the wanted to wait until they got their bag.

Joe Fairless: [laughs]

Dan Plowman: That’s pretty cool now – we’ve got people lined up at the open house that wanna talk to you. That’s what I’m talking about. Break patterns. Now you have a chance to ask some questions, and it’s those questions that allow you that 60 seconds or that 120 seconds of engagement. Without it, what are we doing? We’re just standing there, opening the door to the house.

Joe Fairless: Yup. And then after they get their bag, they leave, open house is over, what’s the process?

Dan Plowman: Well, here’s the other thing, too… When you’re giving somebody something and you’ve asked them to sign in or sign out before they leave – however you do it – it’s usually sign in before you come, people are less apt to lie or to say something that’s not true if you’re engaged and looking them in the eye. So when I’m asking somebody a question and I’ve given them the swag bag (and it may be three or four bucks, like I said; that’s not the point), they’re getting something for free, and I look them in the eye and say “So, have you been looking for homes for long?”, people start to talk. They’ll open up. That’s called reciprocity. They feel the need to reciprocate, because you’ve given them something. Reciprocity is a valuable tool that we don’t use enough in our industry.

Joe Fairless: I agree. So then you talk to them… But then now it’s over. They’ve gone home to their other home. What do you do to follow up with them?

Dan Plowman: Well, I’ll tell you, in our industry there’s one of three things that happen with a lead. And in my opinion, every name and phone number is a lead. Most of them will be duds, some will be follow-ups, and others  will  be appointments. So if the category for which after meeting people in the open houses fall into follow-up, that’s awesome. I build as many follow-ups as I can, and I incubate that. That follow-up sequence has to be done properly – great notes, a proper contact relationship management system… If you don’t have a great CRM in this industry, you will not be comfortable pushing leads into it. A great CRM that works in our industry in my opinion is Real Estate Flow. We use Real Estate Flow, it’s the best; it’s built by realtors, for realtors… But I genuinely believe there needs to be more value placed on follow-up, more so than even the deals. Because the deals, again, are a natural by-product.

Joe Fairless: How do you determine if someone’s a dud or a follow-up?

Dan Plowman: Well, I’ll give you an example. If somebody says to me “No, I have an agent. I’m fully committed to him. I bought my last three homes with him. There’s no way I’m buying with anybody else” – that’s a dud [unintelligible [00:17:48].17] database.

Joe Fairless: Yup.

Dan Plowman: If somebody says “My mom is a realtor. I’m gonna buy with her or she’ll disown me and I’ll never have Christmas dinner again”, I’m not gonna put that in my follow-up system. But there are a lot of people with those conditioned responses that will say things like — let’s say we just had a registry sign-in sheet that says “Pam and David Smith”; one of the boxes that I don’t on some sign-in sheets [unintelligible [00:18:10].19] because we teach, coach and train people on how to build their business right across North America… And some of the sign-in sheets I don’t like is when they say “Do you have a realtor? Yes/No.” Everybody is gonna say yes, because they don’t want you to call them.

Joe Fairless: Right.

Dan Plowman: Especially when they’re just looking, “Leave me a alone. This is a free open house. Don’t ask me questions.” So this is why we try to break the pattern with the swag, and this is why I don’t think you should have that box. But I would still follow up with those people. There’s a language to use specific that can break that pattern as well, and bring that down. And when I’m able to say to people “If I could show you value, or some things that you maybe haven’t seen, would  you be open to it?”, quite often they’ll say “Well, I’m not really working with an agent. They’re just kind of sending me some stuff” – well, that’s not a commitment of any sort to me.

Joe Fairless: I’m gonna ask you a question you might not have an answer to, but that’s okay… It’s just something I’m curious to hear your thoughts on. And before I ask you that question, just a little bit of context. My wife and I have gone to a decent amount of open houses recently, in some nice areas; we’ll say we went to like 15. And these are nice homes. Of those 15, one real estate agent ended up following up and putting us on their e-mail list, but the other 14 – nothing. And we didn’t give any red flags to be categorized in the dud category; we didn’t mention anything that would put us in that category, so we should have been in the follow-up or appointment category. Why do you think by and large real estate agents don’t do this type of stuff? And if they haven’t come across you, or stuff you’ve been talking about – well, there’s still certain components of this, like follow up; it should just be something that they do. So why do you think that is?

Dan Plowman: Well, I believe without question it’s the old “20% of the agents make 80% of the money”, and I think I’ve watched that go to about 95% and 5% in the last 25, almost 30 years. In other words, the majority of the money is being made by less and less realtors and commission salespeople. And the reason for it is they’ve managed to make the shift, understanding that business is not like it used to be.

I go back 15 years, even 12 years I can go back, and there were people that were still further in the buying cycle be comfortable calling a real estate agent and talking to them. People have more access to things online now, they don’t need our services until really the very end. Quite often, people already know the home they wanna buy before they even call to see it… And that’s a problem for real estate agents that haven’t transitioned and understand that when people are enquiring or going through open houses, early in the buying cycle, if you don’t see the value in getting names, numbers and following up, you’re missing out, because the massive opportunity and the shift that’s happened in our industry – that’s what it is now; that’s what’s going on.

From those 15 agents I think you said one followed up – the one that followed up, I would bet, is either new in the business and enthusiastic, or has a successful team of some sort already. That’d be my guess. And I don’t know, I’d have to check… But I do know [unintelligible [00:21:10].29] they’re living paycheck to paycheck, they’re on the hamster wheel, and they’ve not built a viable business, and they don’t have a follow-up system, they don’t have Real Estate Flow working for them… They’ve just not leveraged people, technology and marketing. And it’s a mindset.

I think the shift has to happen in our industry, and until it does, there’s gonna be more and more people fumbling over, hoping to find the scraps of people who are now in business. It’s just not the same anymore.

Joe Fairless: Taking a step back, what is your best advice ever for real estate agents, since that was the focus of our conversation? What’s your best advice ever for real estate agents?

Dan Plowman: For anyone, whether they’re new in the business or coming in?

Joe Fairless: Yeah, pick whichever subset you’d like to pick, or all of them.

Dan Plowman: Okay. I think the best advice I could give someone is understanding that you don’t need more leads, you need to understand how to convert leads and be organized with the leads that you will have. Once you master that, then invest money on leads. Otherwise you’re gonna go broke and you’re gonna hate this business.

I’ve watched people who are veterans that still sit at my seminars and put up their hand as soon as I say “What’s the most important thing, your leads, or learning how to convert them?”, and they always say leads. I say “I can give you a bunch of leads right now and you’re gonna convert them terribly and you’re gonna tell me they’re a waste of money, and you’re gonna hate the business more.”

So I think getting organized and understanding the business side of conversion, what it means to establish relationships and value follow-ups… Because again, the deals are a natural byproduct of doing the right thing, so we don’t set our business up in that regard. We just jump into this business in knee-jerk, “How can I make money quickly?” It’s the wrong approach.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Dan Plowman: Okay, you hit me.

Joe Fairless: Alright. First though, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:22:58].21] to [00:23:52].21]

Joe Fairless: Best ever book you’ve recently read?

Dan Plowman: Best ever book I’ve recently read would be High Performance Habits. That’s Brendon Burchard’s book. How Extraordinary People Become That Way.

Joe Fairless: And I know you’ve got some rental properties of your own, so among those rental properties you currently own or previously owned, what’s the best ever deal you’ve done?

Dan Plowman: I think the best ever deal I’ve done would be some of the larger plexes that I leveraged, filled up with tenants very quickly, and then realized the equity opportunity after new appraisals to leverage more money against them.

Joe Fairless: What’s  a mistake you’ve made on a transaction?

Dan Plowman: We’re talking investments still?

Joe Fairless: Yeah.

Dan Plowman: Okay. When you say mistake I’ve made regarding a transaction, that could be relationships too, right?

Joe Fairless: Sure.

Dan Plowman: I’m kidding, man… [laughs] That opens a whole new conversation. I think the biggest mistake I’ve ever made on a transaction – for a personal transaction, is that what you mean?

Joe Fairless: I don’t care, just any transaction… [laughs]

Dan Plowman: Okay, well from a real estate perspective, I remember taking a referral from somebody else and not doing due diligence to understand there was a pipeline in the backyard, and the client who purchased it wanted to put a pool in there, and I was sued. That was a pretty big mistake.

Joe Fairless: Oh, what happened?

Dan Plowman: Not doing the proper searches as a listing agent. Here we have a fiduciary duty and obligation to know everything.

Joe Fairless: Did you lose that lawsuit?

Dan Plowman: Oh, I lost the commission fully, and an additional $2,500. It was about $15,000.

Joe Fairless: Argh!

Dan Plowman: That was the first year in the business. That’s no excuse, but I’m glad I learned that one early.

Joe Fairless: That’s right, yes. What’s the best ever way you like to give back to the community?

Dan Plowman: We do a lot of work with people here at Christmas time. We feed a lot of people. Our last Turkey Drives that we did, we fed 300 families at Christmas. That was pretty cool.

Joe Fairless: Best ever way the Best Ever listeners can learn more about what you’re doing?

Dan Plowman: DanPlowmanCoaching.com. We teach, coach and train people on how to go to the next level, and I’m all about picking up an extra two deals a month as quick as possible. That may sound like a lot to some people… It’s not. If you’re doing 50-75 deals a year, I can get you to 150-200. We do it with coaching clients now; I’m selling 400 deals a  year. I know we can do it. And I really enjoy helping people do that.

Joe Fairless: Well, you’ve got a lot of really good things to say, and I thoroughly enjoyed learning from you today. A couple things that stood out – immediately address what someone thinks is the issue, and that’s how you were able to achieve Rookie of the Year status when you first got started. When you knock on the door, people don’t wanna talk to you, but then if you immediately address what they think is the issue, then you find a way to have that value exchange. Just incredibly savvy and effective move. That was beneficial to all.

And then also being able to convert those leads as they come in. And the open house. You ran a brokerage, other people had listings, they would gladly let you go help them make a commission by hosting the open house, and you used that as an opportunity to build your database and build your relationships, and as you said – I’m paraphrasing – deals are a by-product of our relationships.

Thank you so much for being on the show. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Dan Plowman: I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.


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