March 2, 2018

JF1277: Debate: What's The Superior Strategy - SFR or Apartment Investing? #FollowAlongFriday

Today’s Follow Along Friday episode is a little different. Joe and Theo are debating each other on which strategy is better for investing between single family residences and apartment building/communities. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!

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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff.

We’re doing Follow Along Friday today. I’m pumped, because we’re gonna be talking about apartments, but we’re also talking about single-family homes, something that you and I both have experience in investing in.

This came from a conversation that I had at a meetup that I host in Cincinnati; I hosted it two days ago, and the lady came up to me afterwards and she said “How come you don’t do single-family homes anymore? Why do you do apartments?” and that’s what kind of generated — that’s the impetus for our conversation today.

We’re structuring it uniquely, aren’t we? We’re gonna do some back and forth. What’s the way we’re gonna do this, Theo?

Theo Hicks: I’m gonna play the role of the apartment investor, and you’re gonna play the role of the single-family rental investor. We’re kind of gonna go back and forth and have a debate to portray the pros and cons of each, and you can decide either who the winner or which strategy is best for your current situation.

Joe Fairless: Cool. I’m gonna have to do my best Days of our Lives impression, because I am an apartment investor, as I’m sure everyone knows who’s listening to this show… But I’m going single-family home on this and Theo is taking apartments just to spice things up. So let’s do this… And then I’m gonna mention a couple things after we get done that kind of were top of mind when I was talking to the lady at the meetup. But I’m gonna mention that towards the end, because I wanna wholeheartedly embrace my role as a single-family home investor for the purposes of this conversation.

Theo Hicks: Exactly. Basically, everything that you’re saying is not necessarily what you believe and what you prefer, but you’re doing this just to get the point across. I would say the first thing or the biggest reason why apartment investing or just multifamily investing in general is preferred to single-family investing comes with the fact that for single-family investing if you have one vacancy, obviously you’re getting zero rental income. If you have one maintenance issue and you’re only making a couple hundred dollars per month in profit, then on a large maintenance issue that could wipe out your profits for a month or potentially even a year, depending on the size.

An example would be for my buildings – if it was a single-family house and I had to pay as much as I did for the HVAC repair, I would not have made money on that single-family house for a very long time… Probably multiple years. But since there’s twelve units that are bringing income in to cover that cost, it’s only a couple of months of downtime.

I’ll start with that… And also, you can say the same thing for not only a vacancy, but the cost associated with that vacancy in regards to turnover costs. So not only are you getting no rent coming in from that month or however long it is vacant for, but also you have to pay for the turnover cost, and if you had a tenant that not necessarily destroyed the unit, but did some damage to the unit, again, you could lose your profits for a couple of months.

Conversely, for the apartments, that is spread across (as I’ve kind of mentioned) multiple units. So one person or even two people leaving is not gonna have as much of an effect as it would on a single-family house.

Joe Fairless: The main expense with single-family – and mostly multifamily – is turnover costs… So I agree with you. When I’ve got a single-family house and someone moves out, it’s a large chunk of money, and it’s likely gonna knock out the majority of my profits. So knowing that’s the main variable that could really sink the investment from a short-term cashflow standpoint, long-term you pay down the mortgage, you get some tax breaks on the mortgage insurance, and once the mortgage is wiped away, you’re doing pretty well with the house and the cashflow.

But short-term, the key is to not have people move out… And if you do have someone move out, it’s just being more hands-on, making sure that you’ve got someone waiting to take their place… Because everyone has a life event, but do you have a new tenant/resident ready to take their place?

So for me, the argument of with one person moves out of an apartment building, and if it’s a four-unit apartment building, then I’m at 75% occupancy, versus if it’s a single-family home I’m at zero… For me, that’s just laziness in management. Because if you have a single-family home and you know someone’s gonna move out, then fill it; just fill it, and have it pre-leased. Sure, there’s gonna be some turnover costs, you can’t really mitigate that other than having a bulletproof management plan where you document what the unit or house looked like prior to them moving in, and then you document prior to them moving out, you screen properly so that anything that they’re responsible for tearing up, they compensate you for.

Now, sure, there’s gonna be normal wear and tear that you’ve got to pay out of pocket, but there’s a lot of stuff that if they mess up, they need to fix, they need to compensate you for it. So if you do have a single-family home, you can have the advantage of having a highly occupied property continuously, as long as you’re managing it the right way. From an expense standpoint, the way that we take advantage of the tax code is we repair things, versus replace them… Because when you repair them, it’s considered something different than if you buy something brand new.

When you are managing it properly, or your property management company is managing it properly, you shouldn’t have to replace a bunch of stuff, you should continually be repairing things, that way 1) nothing major happens along the way, for the most part (there’s always gonna be something); 2) you’re getting the tax advantages for that single-family home and for the repair jobs.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, I agree. For all the cons for both single-family and apartments, they can be overcome with proper experience, the right team and not being lazy, as you said. Something else to touch on is because you could argue that for the maintenance issue – yeah, you could overcome that, but one thing that I think is more difficult to overcome is the scalability of single-family homes. When you’re looking at buying an apartment, you’re buying four units at a time, ten units at a time, twelve units at a time, and if you’re buying it in your own personal name, that is all gonna be under one loan, whereas if you’re buying a single-family house, that’s one unit per loan… And again, obviously there’s ways to get around this – you could raise money, you could get a commercial loan on a single-family house (I know some lenders do that), but the general way that people will buy their single-family rentals is with a loan in their personal name, which depending on who you’re using to get four to ten of those, before you have to start doing some creative financing and getting jumbo loans and with our other strategies to buy single-family homes… Whereas with the apartments, you can get ten units with one loan.

Depending on the size of the apartment that you get you, you’re gonna get the benefits of multiple single-family houses under one loan, and with one purchase. If you’re buying these commercial properties, from as far as I know, if you’re putting them in an LLC, as long as you have the money and you’re doing the proper due diligence of course, there really is no limit to the number that you can get from the commercial lender, as long as the property itself meets their underwriting criteria.

Joe Fairless: I agree with you. It’s more challenging to buy a bunch of single-family homes compared to one transaction of many units with an apartment community. So I’ll certainly agree with you on that point, barring an outlier scenario… For example, I’ve just interviewed someone who bought 50 single-family homes in one transaction from a gentleman who owned them, in Muskegon, Michigan. He got seller financing terms. He financed them through the seller financing for like 15 years — I forget the exact terms… But barring some outlier situation like that, it’s more challenging to get the financing and the transactions done.

The flipside though — so on the entry, going in, it can be more challenging, but what about the exit if you need flexibility with your finances, if you need a little bit more liquidity? Well, if you have 50 single-family homes versus a 50-unit apartment building and my son or daughter now wants to go to private school because the school district is filled with drug dealers and bad stuff – overnight something happened; I don’t know what happened, but that’s what happened – well I don’t wanna sell my entire apartment community. Maybe I can get a supplemental loan on the apartment community, or maybe I do a refinance… So I could do some things like that, or if I have 50 single-family homes, hey, how about I sell one of those or two of those single-family homes, maybe I do a land contract, maybe I just sell it outright, get the cash, and that would allow me to keep the bulk of my portfolio, but gives me more liquidity than an apartment building, because then I can sell off one or two of those and now my kids are no longer subjected to day.

Theo Hicks: Yeah. I’m not 100% sure how long it takes to pull money out of an apartment building, as that’s something that you would know more than I would, but my counter to that – if it was an unexpected event where it needed to be pulled out quickly, it sounds like it would be easier to do it just based off of the fact that you could sell one of your single-family homes out of your portfolio… But if you know ahead of time, for example if you’re wanting to save up for your kid’s college fund, or he’s going to college in four years, or he’s at college and you know he’s gonna graduate in four years and you wanna get him a house, then you could buy an apartment and through forcing appreciation, buying it preferably below market value and increasing the rent, since the value of the property is based off of that operating income, and obviously the market cap rate, you have the opportunity to force appreciation more than you would on the single-family, which is based off of the actual sales comps.

Now, of course, I do know that you could buy a single-family really low and fix it up and then have it appreciate that way, but from the apartment perspective, it seems like you can force appreciation to a higher level, because obviously, it’s a larger building.

Something else that I didn’t specify in the beginning is it kind of depends on what you’re talking about with apartment investing, because it can mean a lot fo different things; it can mean kind of what I’m doing, where I’m buying four units at a time, but it can also be what you’re doing… I guess not the you in this debate, but the actual Joe – you’re doing apartment syndications where you’re actually raising money. And if that’s the case, then that is, assuming we have the relationships with the right team, as well as people that we can raise money from, the return on investment perspective for the syndicator far exceeds that of single-family investing… Because yeah, you’ll have money in the deal, but based off all the fees you collect during the deal, and then the big chunk of capital you make at the end of the deal far exceeds anything you can make from single-family investing, in my opinion.

Joe Fairless: Okay. So I’ve basically been playing off of what you’ve been saying, and then doing counter-points, but I want to turn the table on you and I wanna talk about some things… From a single-family home standpoint, it’s a lot easier because I have lived and I know people who live in homes and rent homes, but I don’t know anyone who has bought an apartment complex; I don’t know where to begin, and with the single-family home I pretty much get it – people rent, the rent pays the mortgage, and the single-family home is a way to make money and have another house, and it’s a lot easier for me to understand… So the barrier for my entry into investing in single-family homes is a lot easier; there’s a lot more real estate agents I can talk to who sell me single-family homes. I don’t know one apartment building real estate agent, if that’s what they’re called.

On top of that, there’s a lot of money involved, I imagine, in buying apartments versus single-families, and I can get a sense of accomplishment by buying on house, then another house, then another house, versus me trying to buy an apartment building and learning the whole process. That seems like a whole other type of education I’ll have to do.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, I agree. The largest con of the apartment investing, whether it be — I would say the apartment syndicating, because for me, I bought a duplex, I own a single-family home that I rent, and I have fourplexes, and they’re all very similar. So when we’re getting into the big things, the big apartments, yes, the biggest con is the barrier to entry from an educational standpoint, from an experience standpoint, because you need a proven record to be respected by people that are selling the deals, but also to raise money for the deals. And obviously, the barrier to entry of having people that have hundreds of thousands of dollars laying around to invest in the deal. But my counter to that would be there’s this guy out there named Joe Fairless, who’s teaching everyone exactly how to do this, with blog posts… We actually have a book coming out that’s giving you the exact step-by-step process of doing apartment syndication.

Something you said earlier about basically single-family investors having issues with one maintenance cost losing all of their profits or having high vacancy rates – they’re being lazy – I would say we have a similar situation here; if you are the person that is using the high barrier to entry, it always can take a lot of time and work up to this, I would just say you’re being lazy.

Joe Fairless: Fair enough.

Theo Hicks: Something else that you have to say too a lot is about not being selfish, and so if you’re afraid of raising money or you’re afraid of becoming a syndicator, it’s because you’re kind of focusing on yourself and not focusing on how you raising money for your deals will benefit the people that are investing, because you’re allowing them to reach their financial goals and they’ll have more free time to do what they wanna do… And if they have more money, they’ll be able to donate more to charity, they’ll be able to add more value to the world in general. So that’s something that you can’t reallly get with single-family investing, because it’s just you making the profit, whereas here it’s kind of spread apart across a bunch of people at the same time.

Joe Fairless: You didn’t mention the magic of cap rates. You take your NOI and you divide it by the cap rate and then you’ve got your value, versus single-family homes, they’re just valued based on sales comps. So you can really force appreciation — oh, I guess I’m not the single-family home guy anymore… [laughs] You can really force appreciation, you have more opportunity to force appreciation with apartments versus single-family homes. I know you can convert a single-family home that’s maybe zoned for commercial into an office, so there’s a way you force appreciation, or you build on top or you add a room or something, but it’s really nothing like apartments in the scale; you can force a large amount of appreciation, and then if you’re in a good area you’ve got the cap rate and that’s a multiplier effect for your value.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, I think I’ve mentioned that when we were having the scenarios about the person who knows ahead of time that they are gonna need the equity in the future… But I think that’s where the end of this little debate — do you wanna just briefly mention why you personally transitioned from single-family investing to apartment syndications?

Joe Fairless: Yes. When Sheri, the lady who asked me about this at my meetup afterwards — she phrased it in such an interesting way… She said “Wouldn’t it be easier to do single-families over multifamilies to be where you’re at?” And she said “to be where you’re at”, and I was like “Well, to be where my company is at…” – we’ve got 265 million dollars worth of apartment communities right now, and roughly 35% is equity, so that’s 92 million dollars worth of cash into these deals that my investors and I, and my business partner Frank, we’ve put into these deals. 92 million dollars. Well, I can tell you when I started out I didn’t have 92 million dollars, nor if I was investing in single-family homes would I today, most likely, have 92 million dollars. I had $50,000 in my bank whenever I got started.

So it’s a lot easier to — “easy” definitely isn’t the right word, but it’s more effective to do apartment investing to get to larger numbers faster than single-family investing, that’s for sure… And especially if you partner with other people, like we do, with accredited investors – then we all get to where we want faster. So that’s one reason – you get to where you wanna go faster, and you help others along the way, so two thumbs up for that.

The other is last week – it might have been this week – I got an e-mail from my property management company who manages my single-family homes; I’ve got three single-family homes in Dallas-Fort Worth, and… Actually, it was on Monday. I remember it was on Monday, because the e-mail started “Bad news to start out your week”, so I was like “Okay, hit me! What have we got?” But I know it’s coming from my single-family management company, so dude, they can’t say anything that would be bad news for me. It’s peanuts compared to what bad news would be from CityGate, our multifamily property management company.

So this is my single-family property management company. Alright, fine, bad news – what have we got? It’s a circuit breaker that went out; $2,000, they have to completely replace it. Okay, that sucks, but I made $250/month on the house… Ish, so it’s gonna wipe out the profits for the next 12 months. Okay, that’s just the reality of it. In the big picture it’s not that big of a deal because of my portfolio now, but if I had three single-family homes and I was banking on the fact that they would continue to make money each month while I had my W-2 job, and that money each month would then be saved to buy my next house, which was my previous plan, then that would be Armageddon. Armageddon would be taking place, because I now have a budget with my W-2 job – or in this hypothetical scenario I’d have a budget with my W-2 job, I might save a little bit, but really these “investments”, these three single-family homes – they’re supposed to be making money… And they do for the most part, but then when something like that happens, boom! There it goes; it all goes away for 12 months. And I bought these the right way. These are three homes, and the first house I bought for $76,000, it rents for about $1,200; the second house I bought for $81,000, it rents for about $1,200, and the third house I bought for $65,000 and it rents for like $1,150. And they’re in decent areas, they’ve all doubled in value for whatever that’s worth, so they’re good, solid, cash-flowing purchases, and they don’t really make money. And I’d have to a much higher degree of scale, and in order to do that, if I just focused on single-families, there’s a lot of paperwork involved, there’s a lot of finding the deals involved, and it’s just — the amount of time it takes to find one of those… The amount of time it takes to probably find three single-family homes, I could find one 100-unit apartment building that makes sense to purchase.

So for those reason alone, not to mention all the other stuff that you brought up – that’s why we do apartments, and that’s why we’ve got the business that we’ve got.

Theo Hicks: I agree whole-heartedly… And even if you – again, as we’ve talked about earlier – don’t wanna do massive apartments, at least do duplexes or fourplexes, as opposed to single-families, just because you’re not getting as much of the value that you get from doing apartments, but in my opinion I think it’s still better than having this one-unit, because of all the reasons you just listed, and I think it’s more scalable.

And then of course, obviously, you can scale single-family investing, and people do it, but as Joe mentioned, the apartment and multifamily strategy is a lot more — not easy, but effective, or efficient, at scaling.

Joe Fairless: Absolutely. Sweet.

Theo Hicks: So I’ll go into some quick updates that I’ve got on my business. I officially sent out the direct mailer I believe on Monday or Tuesday of this week. As I mentioned I think the last week, it’s actually being set up and sent out by a real estate agent, so it’s got her branding on it, and basically she’s sending it out on the behalf of a client (with me being the client). I actually haven’t seen anyone do that before, so I don’t know what the success rate is on that…

Joe Fairless: I’ve done it.

Theo Hicks: You’ve done it through an agent?

Joe Fairless: Yeah, my sister…

Theo Hicks: And how did it work?

Joe Fairless: We got some responses… I didn’t close on anything, but this was about three years ago, so…

Theo Hicks: I haven’t heard anything yet, so maybe they haven’t reached those people yet, but we’ve sent out 400 of them, and we’re gonna send out another one in I believe two or three months (I can’t remember exactly when), so I’m looking forward to talking about the success from that. And then I’ve got my first meetup in six days, and it’s actually already sold out…

Joe Fairless: Wow!

Theo Hicks: …based off of the limit that I put on there, and I keep raising the limit as people join, just because I want it to be sold out. So right now there’s 11 people going…

Joe Fairless: Sly marketing tactic you’ve got there…

Theo Hicks: Yeah… I just found out last night that that was reduced to ten, because my wife can’t come, because she’s got something going on…

Joe Fairless: At least it didn’t go from two to one.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, seriously… So I’m gonna keep increasing that, and I actually —  we were talking about before we recorded, but I got lunch with one of your investors this week, and she’s looking to start a multifamily-specific meetup group. She lives about an hour North of me, so we’re kind of like bouncing around ideas of potentially – based off of the success of this meetup and the conversations I have with the people that are there – doing a bi-monthly meetup, where we’ll do one that’s general to all types of investors, because  the people coming here are agents, some of them are investors, some of them are insurance brokers… And then doing another one either up closer to her, or in a more central location that’s specifically geared towards multifamily, just because she’s interested in multifamily, I’m interested in multifamily, so we’re kind of combining forces to not necessarily do two separate meetups, but kind of under one umbrella… It’s actually an idea that we were [unintelligible [00:25:19].04] around with, and that might be something that we do, again, depending on how this meetup goes.

Joe Fairless: I love it. Joined forces. I’m glad you met up with her, too. On your meetup, do you have to pay to attend?

Theo Hicks: No, it’s free.

Joe Fairless: So your meetup is in six days. That is…

Theo Hicks: Wednesday.

Joe Fairless: Wednesday, okay. So next Follow Along Friday I’m looking forward to hearing how many attend, because what I found with the free meetups is that you’ll get a big RSVP list, but then a small percentage will actually attend. When I started my meetup in Cincinnati, as you probably remember, it was free, and then I’d have all these RSVP’s and a small percentage would actually show up. So now I charge – what is it, $2,50 to RSVP, and I say “No refunds”, and then I just use that money and buy pizza. I have like a 95% attendance rate based on RSVP’s.

So I’m interested to hear if that holds true with what you’re doing – maybe you’ll end up doing like a $2 thing, too – or if mine was just an anomaly.

Theo Hicks: What I did for this one – I don’t think I can do this for every single one, especially as it grows, but whenever we got an e-mail notification that someone RSVP-ed, it private-messages them on the meetup app, just kind of a “Welcome to the group. Thanks for RSVP-ing. Looking forward to learning more about you and your business.” And they reply. Actually, one guy – or girl, I’m not sure, because they have a pseudonym as their name – but they were your podcast. I don’t know what their name is yet, but I’ll meet them hopefully when they come. I’m hoping that maybe this approach of reaching out to them might have more people come, but again, we’ll see. If not, then I agree.

We’re doing it at a restaurant and it would be really annoying if we’ve got 15 people signed up and I make a reservation for 15 people, and then five people are [unintelligible [00:27:10].28] at this big, empty table. That would not look too good. [laughter]

Joe Fairless: Hey, I’ve been there before. It happens in the early days; it certainly happened with me. The other thing I wanted to ask you about – you learned about some tactics at the conference… We talked about this, actually — didn’t we talk about this last week? Tactics to grow your meetup.

Theo Hicks: I don’t think I did.

Joe Fairless: Okay, what are a couple tactics that you learned that will help grow the meetup? One was messaging people who attended previous meetups, and then telling them that you’ve got a meetup, right? Something like that…

Theo Hicks: Yes. There’s four keys to a meetup, and again, we kind of briefly mentioned it last week but we didn’t go into details… And again, this is from Adam Adams out of Denver. One thing, which is kind of what I did and you called it a slick marketing move, which you cap the size of the events on What you do is you’ll say — you’re starting out with, for example, ten people; then let’s say you get eight people to show up. An hour before the meeting, go in there and reduce the cap to eight people, so it says that it sold out. The reason that you do that ties into number two, which is if you wanna invite speakers – because he invites speakers to his event – you can sell them on the fact that your meetups are already sold out. So you can say “Hey, I’ve got this meetup group. It’s always sold out. Do you wanna come and speak to these real estate investors?”

In combination with that, what  he would do is he would is he’d invite a speaker — let’s say for example he invites a wholesaler to come in and talk; he’ll go on and type in “wholesaling groups” and he’ll find the wholesaling groups in the area… Now again, this might not work for smaller markets, but if there’s a wholesaling group, he’ll go in there and he’ll private-message the most recent — I can’t remember the exact number that he said, but he’ll e-mail…

Joe Fairless: I thought you said 30.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, 30 or 50. He’ll direct-message them and say “Hey, I’ve got this meetup group, we have this speaker, here’s their information. I saw you’re a wholesaler, and they’re a wholesaler, too. Would you like me to send you the link?” That way you’re actually sending them the link and then no getting a response — that way if they’re interested, they’ll respond and say yes, and then you’ll send them the link. So that’s a way to grow your meetup.

Something else he said, too – and these are, in my opinion, smaller tactics. So the first two I think were key, and these two are make sure you’re letting the group know what’s coming up and then what has already happened. So if you make a Facebook group, not only do you want to post messages about upcoming events, who’s gonna be the speaker there, but you also want to talk about what happened in the past. So you wanna take pictures of the event, maybe write up a blog post about what the speaker talked about… So kind of use all the events to attract people, but also talk about what’s coming in the future to also attract people to your meetup group. And I guess a fifth one was he recommends doing them weekly, as opposed to monthly, to grow them faster.

[unintelligible [00:29:51].05] cap your events, invite a speaker, and then depending on what niche that speaker is in, find that group on meetup and message the members of that group. Talk about what’s coming up, talk about what happened, and then do it weekly.

Joe Fairless: Grant, who is our lead and social media for our team, and also heads up logistical stuff for my local meetup – Grant, I know you’re listening; now we’ve got five things to take ours to the next level.

Sweet. What else have we got? Anything else?

Theo Hicks: Make sure you guys check out the Best Ever Community on Facebook. We post a question there each week, and if you answer it, you’ll have the opportunity to be featured in a blog post.

This week the question is about markets, and we’re asking “What real estate market are you having the most success in and why?” You can determine what it means by “success.” So make sure you go to the, look for that thread and submit your answer, and you could be featured on the Best Ever Blog.

Joe Fairless: Sweet. And we’ve got our book coming out… It’s written, and we’re just going through the review process. I’ve got a stack of 40 pages that I’m reading through and we’re making edits… So I’m thinking on Amazon, and for sure by 1st May, right? Come on, we can commit to that.

Theo Hicks: For sure by 1st May, yeah.

Joe Fairless: Well, I’m just giving the production time, and all sorts of other stuff. We want it to be as soon as possible — well, we want it to be as best as possible, and then however long it takes, it takes, but we’re closing in. That’s a book on apartment syndication, nothing else like it; you’ll get a lot of value from it if you’re wanting to raise money and/or buy apartments. You can get updates at — what is the newsletter URL?

Theo Hicks:

Joe Fairless: If that takes you to someone else’s website, then I apologize.

Theo Hicks: It’s confirmed.

Joe Fairless: Alright, sweet.

Theo Hicks: We’ll release it on 6th May, because that’s my birthday and I want everyone to remember my birthday. [laughter]

Joe Fairless: Most important is that this is about Theo. That’s the most important thing.

Theo Hicks: It’s just like last week with the comment. So just to wrap up, make sure you guys subscribe on iTunes, and please leave a review. It helps us out a lot, and you can also, again, be featured on these Follow Along Fridays. This week we’ve got the review of the week from ProtegeA.

Joe Fairless: Protégé.

Theo Hicks: Protégé. It’s spelled a lot differently.

Joe Fairless: Oh, okay.

Theo Hicks: They say “Real estate advice on the go” is their title, which I think would be a great name for a podcast.

Joe Fairless: That is a good name for a podcast.

Theo Hicks: And they said “Joe does a great job of sharing his knowledge and his friend’s knowledge (which I hope is me) with the listeners. Want to learn about various real estate investing opportunities from somebody who’s not trying to sell you on? Listen to Joe.”

Joe Fairless: I love it, thank you. And I love how, Theo, you’ve gone from being Theo to a friend, and then on the next review you’ll just be that guy. [laughter] Well, thank you so much for that review. As I’ve mentioned previously, the reviews help us attract high quality guests, and that helps you, Best Ever listeners, get better stuff to help you make more money and do the stuff you wanna do… So please continue to leave reviews.

I enjoyed our conversation, and we will talk to you tomorrow.

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