December 8, 2017

JF1193: Pros And Cons Of Active Vs. Passive Investing #FollowAlongFriday

Today Joe will dive into the differences between being an active investor vs. being a passive investor. Joe is mostly referring to being an apartment syndicator vs. passively investing in an apartment syndication, but they’ll also touch on other forms of actively investing such as fix and flip, buy and hold, and BRRR. We’ll get updates from Joe and Theo on their businesses and how their lessons learned this week can help us. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff.

We’ve got Theo Hicks with us. How are you doing, sir?

Theo Hicks: Doing good, Joe. How are you doing?

Joe Fairless: I am doing very well.

Theo Hicks: How is the puppy doing?

Joe Fairless: The puppy is doing very well. For everyone who’s watching the video or following via Facebook Live, we’ve got Jack with us, a ferocious 13-pound Yorkie, and we’re ready to go. On Follow Along Friday we talk about what we’re doing, but it’s always with an eye towards how we can help the Best Ever listeners based on the stuff that we’ve learned along the way. So let’s dig in, what have we got?

Theo Hicks: Alright, so the main topic for today is gonna be discussing the pros and cons of active investing versus passive investing. We’ll start off with a list, just in general, of pros and cons of active versus passive investing, and then maybe talk about personally what we believe is the best investing approach.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, and let’s start with some context. This question comes up on occasion when I speak to potential new investors who are looking to invest passively, but they’re also considering instead of investing passively, they’re considering putting their money towards a single-family house, and then building their own rental portfolio. And I get occasionally the question of “Well, what are your thoughts on the pros and cons of investing in single-families, with my own stuff, versus multifamily, passively, with you?” That’s why we came up with this topic for today, because I think it’s gonna be relevant to some of the Best Ever listeners.

So there’s pros and cons, as with anything in life; there’s advantages and disadvantages, and as objectively as I can look at it, because obviously, I partner with the investors and we buy apartment communities together, and that’s the main way I make money, but I also have invested in single-family homes and I personally do own three single-family homes. The first one I bought was in 2009, so… What are we, 2017? Eight years, holy cow! I’ve owned the home for eight years, and I have three now.

I don’t buy homes anymore. The real estate investments I do do are all in our deals. I just wanna enjoy the profits along with my investors in the deal, so I just invest my own money in our deals. So I don’t do single-family homes. Here are some pros and cons for single-family home investing…

Theo Hicks: Before that, I’ve got just one question. So the context is passive investing would be passively putting your money into a syndication-type deal, whereas active investing would be building your own rental portfolio, no matter how you’re doing that. For example, you’re just kind of like quasi-passive, because yeah, you’re doing it yourself, but you also have the management company handling it, whereas other active investors might be someone who’s actually doing all of it themselves.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, you’re right, so there’s different degrees of active and passive investing. So I will define what I’m considering active investing, and then I’ll talk about the pros and cons.

I’m gonna be considering active investing if you are buying  a single-family house and you have a property management company overseeing it. Because generally speaking, the investors I come across during these conversations, they’re not looking to be the property manager.

So pros, single-family homes, with a property manager, would be you control it. With the passive investing in multifamily syndication or other syndications, you don’t control it. You’re a limited partner, and you really have to put a lot of trust in the people running the operation. Now, there’s other checks and balances along the way, like having a preferred return. In the preferred return scenario, you must get a preferred return annually, plus at the sale you must have an annual preferred return return to you plus your money back, before the general partnership gets any share of the profits. So there’s incredible alignment of interest there, but nonetheless, you don’t control the deal, the general partners do. With a single-family home, you have control.

Secondly, with the single-family home you have the ability to influence the business plan should you see something that needs to be updated. For example, maybe you’re in an appreciating market and you want to pump in some more money into the property to renovate, increase rents, which likely won’t do if you’re passive and you’ve got a property management company – likely you’ll just buy it and pretty much forget about it, and collect the money, but that’s another advantage.

When we were doing notes for this, we had “You can potentially make more money.” The reason why we talked about that before is because if you buy a single-family home, then you can renovate it – and this is if it’s not a turnkey – increase the value of it, and then do a cash-out refinance, take that money and roll it into something larger and continue to scale. That’s not passive unless you have the right team in place – a property management company and a  real estate agent to help you pull that off, because you’re going to have to oversee the renovation of a project, and that can be time-consuming. But if you have the right property management company in place and you have the right real estate agent or you have a way of finding the deals, then a really good investment is to find a distressed house, renovate it, get an increased value, do a cash-out refinance, get all that cash back out, so you basically have no money in it, put a mortgage on it, still cash-flow, and then buy another property with the proceeds from that forced appreciation.

That’s an incredible business plan, it’s just more active… And it’s something that requires time effort and there’s a greater degree of risk. But if you’re wanting to be on par with the type of projected profits and profits that we’re returning in apartment syndication, then that would be the way to go; it’s just gonna require more of your effort, and you might make more money doing a single-family home front, if you do the value-add deal and you’re as actively involved there.

Theo Hicks: Another active pro, if we’re talking about it strictly as single-family versus investing in apartment syndication – and correct me if I’m wrong, but the amount of money or the net worth you would need to enter would be a lot lower. So if you’re just starting off, it would be easier to do the single-family and buying it yourself, and you’re putting down (I don’t know) 30k, 40k, 50k… But all you need is have that money, you don’t need to have a huge net worth. And then being active with the property management company doing it… Whereas if you wanna do a syndication, you need to be accredited, you need to have a certain net worth… So that’s another pro versus con. It’s not really a pro versus con, it’s just…

Joe Fairless: The reality.

Theo Hicks: …where you are in your business and in your life.

Joe Fairless: It’s a great point, and I didn’t mention that because the individuals who I’m speaking to are already accredited, and this is more of an accredited conversation, but you’re totally right, and I’m glad you’ve mentioned it. If you don’t have the net worth or you’re not accredited, then yeah, it’s really a move point, because you only have one option…

Theo Hicks: Exactly.

Joe Fairless: Unless you get into a syndication — there are syndications that you can invest in if you are a sophisticated investor. We don’t do that with our investments, we only do it with accredited investors, for various reasons.

Theo Hicks: Okay, so what about the cons for active investing?

Joe Fairless: Well, there could be more risk involved if you are doing the value-add approach, because I can’t imagine — well, actually I can imagine, because I did it and I flopped on it. When I was in New York — so I mentioned I have three homes; well, I used to have four. I sold the fourth, because it was terrible. We talked about this in previous episodes a while ago. From a high-level cliff notes version, I did really well on homes one, two, three, but then the fourth house I bought for $35,000 and I thought I was gonna put $5,000 into it… The first three homes were pretty much turnkey(ish), less than $1,000 to move in. This fourth one I bought from a wholesaler, it needed $5,000 worth of work. I was managing it remotely from New York City; the house was in Forth Worth, Texas, and the $5,000 repair cost after I closed turned into $15,000 repair cost. After renovations it rented for less than what it was renting for prior to renovations… It was a hot mess, and there was risk involved. That’s the only home I lost money on. Actually, I might have broke even, because the homes appreciated like crazy, but it wasn’t a good use of my money, that’s for sure, because time-valued money is terrible.

So there is a greater risk if you don’t have the right team members in place. Now, compare that to a system that’s already rocking and rolling, and you’re plugging into it, you’re investing passively into a system that has proven to work, versus you coming up with your own system…

Then I’d say another disadvantage to single-family homes versus passively investing would be the time commitment. Time commitment, for sure. You will be overseeing the property management somewhat… I mean, I don’t spend a lot of time at all with single-family homes once I’ve purchased them, but there is a lot of research and time involved in visiting the market etc. if you don’t live there prior to the purchase. Once you’ve purchased a single-family home, if you have a good management company, you should be pretty hands off; I’m incredibly hands off with my single-family homes, but leading up to that point, there’s a lot of time involved there.

And lastly I’ll say, at least from my experience, I have three single-family homes and they net about $300/month.

Theo Hicks: Per?

Joe Fairless: Per.

Theo Hicks: Okay.

Joe Fairless: $900/month I am getting in my bank account net from those homes. And the problem though is that when a home becomes vacant, like one of them did about a year ago – I think last summer – $5,000 to turn it over, fix it up, repair the stairs… I don’t think we put in new appliances, just get the puppy ready, plus I didn’t even factor in the amount of time or lost revenue for not having a resident; I didn’t factor that in, but yeah, $5,000 – that takes up all the properties for that one property for sure for a year, and that bleeds into another property’s profits for the year. So when you’ve got turnovers, you’re not making the $300 or so a house that you project, and in fact it could wipe away your profits, whereas if you passively invest in a multifamily or if you buy a multifamily property, then you have one turnover – okay, that’s terrible, but you’ve got all these other units to support the income stream and keep things healthy.

Theo Hicks: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: You started with singles, and now you’re multi, so what are your thoughts?

Theo Hicks: I started with a duplex. It’s not my definition of active investing, it’s just what I did was 100% active. I was managing them myself, I was doing all of it, and… I was talking about it before, but while I was doing it – because I mentioned last week how I’m putting in a property management company – since I was doing it, I always convinced myself that “Oh yeah, this is fine… I enjoy this, I like this”, but one of the biggest things that you have to take into account is the amount of time you’re spending on it, and is that time worth more or less than what you would pay a property management company… And based on how often I had to go to my properties for my first duplex, it would not have made sense for me to get a property management company, because I did a bunch of renovations upfront — essentially, I did like a fix and flip, but kept it and rented it… So after a couple of small issues in the beginning, I was never even going to the property at all.

For these ones, and it could be because there’s more units – there’s 12 of them – but man, I feel like I was over there a couple times a week every single week, so if I calculate my hours I’m spending over there, the drive time, the gas, it was maybe $500, $600 that I was spending on that. That is basically exactly what I’m gonna spend for a property management company, minus all that mental annoyance of having to go over there, and checking my phone constantly.

So I think that it’s all pros for passive. My definition of passive would be kind of your active – having a property manager and you managing the property manager. But I was actually talking to someone the other day that I know and was in my neighborhood, who was wanting to invest, and he was kind of saying the exact same thing – he was looking at properties, and he was wanting to buy a fourplex or a duplex just to kind of start off, and then manage it himself, or even put a property management under it, but he was saying he had issues actually finding the deal himself. So that could be another pro of passive investing. I guess you need to find the syndicator, but you don’t have to find the deal, you don’t have to make sure that it’s actually a good deal.

So what he’s gonna do is he’s going to just plug into — I think he’s gonna plug into Memphis Invest. I don’t know how he found them…

Joe Fairless: Chris Clothier?

Theo Hicks: I was like, “Oh, I know Chris spoke at a conference I went to…”

Joe Fairless: Great guy.

Theo Hicks: He said he was gonna plug into that… Basically, our conversation right now, of going through the pros and the cons of active versus passive, and how he has just had a kid and he doesn’t have enough time to deal with managing it himself… And based on the conversations we’ve had about how big of a headache it can be to manage them yourself — and again, it depends on if you like it or not. If you actually like going to the property, fixing it up, or dealing with tenant issues… I’m sure some people enjoy that, so by all means, do that. But if you don’t enjoy it, then I definitely recommend going the passive route, which is what I’m gonna do, and then what he is going to do as well.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, and we’ve talked about doing your own property management versus hiring a management company, and I love your approach for the time and how much is your time worth… And there’s something to be said about getting that experience first-hand if you’re going to build a property management company, because that’s invaluable, and I think that you can make a case for investing your time into managing so that you can build something later. But if you don’t plan on building your own property management company later, then I’d say always start out with the third-party management company. And as we’ve talked about before, always budget in management, even if you do initially self-manage, because if you switch it up, then part of your money is going away.

Theo Hicks: Yeah. I do agree with what you’ve said, I think that it is good to at least manage maybe your first property by yourself, just so you know what it’s like. Even if you aren’t going to build a property management company in the future, you’ll know what the property manager is actually doing, so you can kind of figure out if they’re the right fit or not. But for me, I already did that for my first two properties, so I should have just put these 12 under management right away.

Joe Fairless: Yeah. If I wasn’t starting a management company, I would not manage it myself, because my first property, if I was managing, trying to learn the laws around what you can and can’t say, and the leasing agreement, the legal contract with the resident, I wouldn’t mess with that. But to each his own.

Let’s take one giant step back – when you look at real estate, ultimately it’s about capital preservation, and it’s about enjoying the upside of real estate that it affords you, and then it’s getting tax advantages, because it’s an incredibly advantageous investment for tax purposes.

When you look at capital preservation, I’d say investing in a single-family home that’s pretty much turnkey, with a third-party management company – that’s pretty good from a capital preservation standpoint. You’ve got an asset, and assuming it’s cashflowing from day one, you’re gonna be pretty good. You’re not likely going to lose that. 2008 hits, it sucks, your values decrease, but if you’re still cash-flowing and you have some reserve capital for a roof that needs to be replaced during 2008, then you’re fine. Just write it out, and your property has now doubled since 2008 in value.

So on the other end of the spectrum, passively investing in apartment communities, you’ve got the same risk mitigation set up because you’re buying an actual asset, and you have ownership in an entity that owns that asset that currently cashflows. So you’ve got similar risk mitigation levels there, from enjoying the upside – that’s where there’s a fork in the road, because on the upside potential with the single-family home, if it’s more turnkey, you don’t have much upside. You can cross your fingers, hope it appreciates in value, but unless you’re doing a value-add business plan, you don’t have much upside. On the syndication, you do have more of that upside, because that is a value-add business plan.

So I’d say syndication wins there. At the first point they’re about equal, and on the third point, tax advantages, I’d say they’re equal because as long as a syndication group like ours passes the depreciation from the property through to the investors and everyone shares in the depreciation of the property, then you’re going to get the tax advantages just like you would with a single-family house. So that’s why I’d say two points they’re equal – the capital preservation and taxes – and then the ones where passively investing in syndication wins would be the upside potential, unless you do a value-add deal, but then that increases the risk, so then syndication wins on the risk front.

Theo Hicks: Okay, awesome.

Joe Fairless: Sweet.

Theo Hicks: To transition, any updates?

Joe Fairless: Closing today.

Theo Hicks: There you are, yeah…

Joe Fairless: Closing today, yeah. And today – we’re recording this on Wednesday, so for the investors who are in the deal who listen to this episode, yes, we closed on Wednesday, not the day you are actually hearing this episode on the podcast on Friday. So we’re closing today… Closing usually has unnecessary drama, so we plan on closing probably at [4:59] PM Central Standard Time… For whatever reason that just seems to always be the case.

We’re closing today on a 304-unit in Lewisville, Texas, and that will put us in value of property that Ashcroft has – it’ll put us at about 250 million dollars worth of property, so a quarter of a billion dollars.

And additionally, or on a separate note, tomorrow morning I’m flying with Colleen to Raleigh, North Carolina and we’re attending something called Gratitude Training, which may or may not be a cult, I’m not sure yet… My friend, and he’s also an investor with me, and I played flag football with him, and a great guy – he’s told me about this gratitude training, and my spidey senses are tingling a little bit based on what I’ve seen in the video… I’m not quite sure – I’m either gonna really enjoy it and get a lot out of it, or I’m gonna have a darn good story to tell about some crazy cult. So if I come back with a shaved head and tattoos from head to toe, then you know which direction we went.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. That’s gonna be fun.

Joe Fairless: What about you, what’s going on?

Theo Hicks: So I’m moving to Tampa, Florida… So if anyone listening is from Tampa, that’s real estate investing, definitely reach out because I’ll wanna tap in and plug into that investor network down there. I wasn’t 100% confirmed last week, but we know we’re doing it now. My wife got a promotion, same company, so we’re moving down to Tampa. We’re going actually on Saturday/Sunday this weekend to check out properties.

It’s gonna be really nice, they’ve got pools, and maybe a water view… Probably we’ll have the water view, because we don’t wanna go insane, spend a bunch of money on a house that we can use that money to invest in. But from a real estate perspective, as I’ve mentioned last week, I hired a property management company… The guy that I hired, I’ve known him before, and actually I think I’ve met him before he started the company; I remember I talked to him about what his company is going to do, and he had a lot of interesting tactics that he wanted to share with everyone who might potentially wanna start a property management company somewhere in the country. This might be common sense, but when I heard this I was like, “Wow, these are really good ideas!”

One of them, and this is more for people that are active investors and they’re managing their own property — I wish I would have done this before, it’s such common sense that I didn’t about it, but… Some context – for me, whenever an issue happened, the property is about 20 minutes from my house, so a tenant would say “Hey, my toilet is clogged” or whatever, so I’d drive over there, look at the issue, see if I could fix it myself. If I couldn’t, I’d call someone and I’d drive back home, I’d schedule a time, I’d drive all the way back again to meet them there, because I had the keys to let them in.

Joe Fairless: Yeah.

Theo Hicks: So instead of doing that, what I should have done is I should have put a lockbox on all the properties, put all the keys in that lockbox, maybe put it in the back… You can put it on the front door, but I think that’d be a little tacky; I’d have a lockbox, so that if an issue goes wrong, I can say “Hey contractor, can you go check out this issue at this property? The lockbox is in the back, here’s the code. Go in there and do it.” Obviously, you had to know the person and trust them, because you don’t want random people walking through your property, but just the time-saving from that alone would be amazing. And I didn’t really understand how, if I had a property management company, would I just give them my keys and they’d have to coordinate with the contractors that get in the property? I just didn’t understand how that would work, so just overall, I think [unintelligible [00:23:59].02] on your property.

Also, I just thought of this right now – I had one resident reach out to me telling me that his key wouldn’t work, or they lost their key, or I can’t remember exactly what it was. But if they only had a lockbox there… He ended up figuring it out, but if he couldn’t figure it out, instead of me having to go there with my set of keys and trying to get in there, I could have said “Okay, here’s the lockbox”, and then obviously once he opened it up, I had to change the code.

Joe Fairless: Makes sense, yeah.

Theo Hicks: Here’s another one. When I was reading through his contract, I was like, “Oh, this is brilliant!” [unintelligible [00:24:24].25] and you’re also an investor too, which is probably what you’re gonna be if you’re listening to this podcast, in your contract write it out that if the person who you’re managing the property for decided to sell the property, they had the first rights to buy the property. So obviously, maybe you can’t buy it right now, but eventually at some point if you continue to manage that property for a couple of years and they decide to sell it, you may or may not get like a really good price it – that’s not the part, but you have like an extra deal pipeline of deals coming in, the ones that you’re managing. I read that and I was like, “Okay, that’s really smart.”

Joe Fairless: I don’t know how that first right of refusal comes to fruition, because if they wanna sell for 100k and they don’t like you, and you say “Well, we have it in the contract, first right of refusal. I’ll buy it for 100k”, they’re like “Actually, I wanna sell for five billion dollars.” It’s like, “Okay, well I’m not gonna pay five billion dollars.” “Alright, sorry”, and then they sell it for $100,001… I’m sure there’s a way around it, or I’m sure attorneys can figure out a bulletproof way, but I like it conceptually.

Theo Hicks: And even if those situations happen… I thought the same thing, I’m just like, “I don’t understand how this would even work. What if I wanna sell it for 200k and he’s only willing to buy for 150k”, but again, I think if half, or 5% of it actually goes through, that’s still better return [unintelligible [00:25:52].00]

Joe Fairless: Absolutely, yeah. I was thinking worst-case scenario, but generally people are good and then it would work. Cool.

Theo Hicks: So I’ve got four things total. The third thing – again, it’s just common sense, and this is an issue I’ve been running into with a plumber, is that instead of having him come and kind of like do the work and then charge you afterwards, or kind of just throw a price out there for what they’re going to do, negotiate an hourly rate so you know exactly how much money… An hour for their labor, so negotiate exactly how much money – if they come to your property, you’re gonna pay them X amount of dollars per hour no matter what the problem is, plus obviously whatever materials there are.

So instead of having them one time they come and they’re there for half an hour and they charge you $100, then they come again for three hours and it’s $200, and it’s not consistent, you can’t really track or predict how much money you’re gonna spend for how long that project is gonna take… So that’s something I didn’t do, and for the smaller jobs, that became an issue because they were only there for 15-20 minutes, but they were charging me an insane hourly rate, whereas during a larger project, then it was like an amazing deal. But usually there’s more smaller projects than larger ones, like unclogging a toilet…

Joe Fairless: Hopefully.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, hopefully. So I thought that was something else that he does…

Joe Fairless: What’s a good hourly rate that’s fair to you and them?

Theo Hicks: He charges $50/hour.

Joe Fairless: Plumbers?

Theo Hicks: For his contractor, who does everything.

Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. Plumbing, electric…

Theo Hicks: Yeah. Obviously, you’ve gotta break into the walls and replace all the electric, they’d hire someone else. But for the smaller — like if an electrical outlet is loose, or if you need to replace an electrical outlet, this guy does all this stuff.

Joe Fairless: $50/hour.

Theo Hicks: $50/hour, and then obviously, materials as well.

Joe Fairless: That’s your property manager?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, that’s what he charges.

Joe Fairless: That’s what he charges… So do you think he makes a profit on that $50/hour, maybe he pays the guy $35, or something?

Theo Hicks: Probably.

Joe Fairless: Okay, but to the customer – you – you pay $50/hour.

Theo Hicks: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: Okay.

Theo Hicks: How he structured it on his end I’m not 100% sure, but that’s probably what you would wanna do. You would wanna negotiate the price with the contractor, and then charge 10%-20% more… But based on our conversation, I don’t think that’s what he does, but that’s a good idea from his perspective.

Joe Fairless: I would… Yeah.

Theo Hicks: And then finally, just for his technique for finding customers… It’s actually similar to a technique to actually find deals. So you know, people would go on Zillow or Craigslist and call the [unintelligible [00:28:12].07] Instead for him, he would say “I wanna property-manage your property.” You already know that he has a pain point, his property is vacant, he’s listing it himself, so your in is gonna be finding him a high-quality tenant for his property, and then you’ve got him hooked.

Joe Fairless: I love it, that’s smart.

Theo Hicks: So put a lockbox on the front door with all the keys, put in the contract that if the owner wants to sell, you have the first right to buy it, negotiate an hourly rate with your handyman, and then to find clients, go on Craigslist and things like to For Rent ads, and reach out and offer to find a good tenant in return for their business.

Joe Fairless: Those are great tips. I’m glad you shared this, thank you. Cool.

Theo Hicks: So those are my updates. There’s a couple of miscellaneous things – the Best Ever Conference coming up here in a couple of months…

Joe Fairless: Yeah, we’ve got Terrell Fletcher – he has been announced as a guest, and he’ll be doing a keynote. He is a former San Diego — oh, no… Los Angeles Chargers.

Theo Hicks: Did they change their name?

Joe Fairless: Yeah, they’re in Los Angeles now.

Theo Hicks: I didn’t know that. [laughs]

Joe Fairless: Well, most of Los Angeles didn’t either, if you see the stands… A Los Angeles Chargers former NFL football player who played for the chargers, and he’s dynamite. You probably recognize his name through the podcast too, because he was interviewed on the show. Really looking forward to having him at the conference, and we have a couple other new people, too… You can check them out at That’s coming up pretty soon, 9-10th February, I think, in Denver, Colorado.

Theo Hicks: And then I also wanted to mention to go to the Best Ever Facebook Group on Facebook, obviously. That’s where we have interactions and conversations with the — we’re trying to build out a real estate community, where people can ask questions, tell their story, provide tips and techniques for how to improve their real estate business, and I know that we post a couple of questions a week to kind of promote engagement. So make sure you check that out on Facebook, Best Ever Community Group.

Joe Fairless: Cool.

Theo Hicks: And then finally, make sure you go on iTunes and subscribe for the opportunity to be the review of the week. This week the name is mp3ief; I’m not sure what that means, but he/she said:

“The Best Ever Show is an excellent, to the point resource for investing in real estate. I really appreciate the fact that episodes are not too long, stay on point, and are released daily. Joe does an excellent job at sharing his knowledge with the world, and we are better because of it.”

Joe Fairless: I appreciate that, and thank you, Theo, for sharing your knowledge with the world on Fridays. I love those tips that you gave. And thank you mp3ief, I appreciate that. We are also on Spotify now. If you have Spotify, then you can subscribe through Spotify, so it’s nice and easy to do that if iTunes is too cumbersome, which sometimes it can be.

So thank for that and thanks for giving the review, and please, everyone, if you haven’t done a review, please do so. It helps us attract more high-quality guests, so that you have more high-quality conversations to listen to.

Thanks, everyone. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you tomorrow.

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