December 1, 2017

JF1186: How To Talk To Private Money Investors BEFORE You Have An Apartment Deal #FollowAlongFriday

Today’s topic is based mostly around a listener question, that Joe will answer. The whole idea is to continue the conversation after meeting someone for the first time. Rather than having an “elevator pitch” Joe will take an authentic “want to get to know you” approach to his new relationships. The only time he’ll get into specifics about his business when first meeting someone new, is if they are asking about it. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff.

Let’s go ahead and dive right in… How should we approach it?

Theo Hicks: Our main topic today is about how to approach investor conversations before you have a deal, and that is based off a question we got from one of the listeners, [unintelligible [00:01:35].21] I will go ahead and read the full question first, and then we can address it. She goes:

“Hello, Joe. Thank you for all the no-fluff content. I’ve seen your article on how to put together a presentation for investors. My question is what does your initial contact with a prospective investor look like?”

Joe Fairless: The initial contact with a prospective investor – well, it depends on how I’m getting in contact with them. If it’s their coming to me via online, then they go to, they fill out just a quick form, which says their name, are they accredited, are they looking to invest at least 50k, and then a little description about their background, anything relevant they wanna say. I get that e-mail, and then I follow up with them afterwards via e-mail, and basically we set up a time, and I provide a document that has Ashcroft Capital’s information, which includes case studies, our approach, background, things like that. Then we jump on a call and we get to know each other.

Now, if they’re not coming to me via the online form and if, say, I’m just meeting someone for the first time, then I don’t talk about my business really, unless they’re really inquisitive about it. I just get to know them, and I go wherever the conversation takes us. I don’t have an agenda for talking about what I’m doing, and I want to build a relationship with them and stay in touch with them, but it won’t be centered around my business, unless they’re the ones who are really asking about it.

Theo Hicks: Okay. She went on and asked, “Is there an elevator pitch to get them interested and then meet them another time? If so, what does that meeting look like? Can you get them interested in the deal that you do not have yet, especially if had never done a syndication before?” I guess, what happens when you gain initial interest?

I believe your approach is to secure your investors before you actually find a deal, correct?

Joe Fairless: Yes.

Theo Hicks: Do you wanna talk about process? I think that might be what she’s pointing at.

Joe Fairless: The question is “Is your initial elevator pitch to get them interested and then meet another time?” That’s the thing, I don’t have an elevator pitch… If someone were to ask me “What do you do?” and we’re at a party or something like that, then I’d say “I buy apartment communities and I do daily podcasts on real estate investing.” And that might not be the best approach. This isn’t necessarily a best practice, I’m just telling you what I do, because you’re asking… Because I know there are ways to have that elevator pitch and say something like, “I help people get out of the rat race.” I hate that. It sounds so cliché and a little sleazeball, in my opinion… But something like that. So “I help people make a better return than they’re making in the stock market”, or something like that. I just don’t do that. I don’t have an elevator pitch. All I say is “I’m a real estate investor, I buy apartment communities. I’ve also got a daily podcast.” If they inquire more, then I elaborate more. If they don’t, then I go where the conversation goes.

The key though for what I do, and this is what, Whitney, I think you’re getting at is “How do you continue that conversation?” You continue the conversation by actually caring about what they’re talking about, and then having a common ground and continuing it in a genuine way if you actually care about what they’re talking about, then you can.

For example, I’ve recently met with a local investor who filled out the form online, and he happened to be also based in Cincinnati. We had dinner together, and I don’t think he’s a passive investor; even though he said he was in the form, I don’t think he’s a passive investor… He’s an active investor, but he was a really interesting guy, and we’re having a board game night here in a couple of weeks, and you’re coming with Marcella, and I invited him and his wife, because why not? He’s a really interesting guy, probably the most accomplished SEO person in the country… Just next-level smart, and there’s a lot of bullet points to support that. I won’t go into it. But that’s how I approach relationships, and it’s not necessarily a transactional thing, because I don’t think he’s gonna be investing in deals… It’s just someone who I find interesting and I grow that relationship, and something will come out of it. I guarantee you something good will come out of it from a relationship standpoint or a business standpoint or something. By the way, he’s not able to attend; he’s going to the West Coast to hire a couple employees to bring onto his team over there, but we’ll be hanging out again

So that’s the approach I take, and as far as the conversation about meeting another time, then I would do that if you have a genuine interest in meeting with them about whatever they’re most interested in. Now, again, if they ask questions about what you’re doing, then absolutely tell them about what you’re doing, and then there will probably be a good fit, because they’re asking the question, so they probably have a need… And what we do – we provide tremendous value, because we’re providing an investment that most likely will beat the heck out of whatever they’re currently investing in, and it’s passive, with tax benefits.

So we already have the best approach for helping them with their investment goals, but I don’t force-fit that into the conversation. If it comes naturally, it does; if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. The way we can do that – because this is playing a long-term game – is if we have a consistent online presence through a thought leadership platform, because we can afford to play the long game because we’re constantly getting our message out there, and building relationships with people, and more and more people get to know us.

If you aren’t playing the long game and you don’t have a thought leadership platform, then you’re gonna be in trouble because then it’s very transactional; people can get a sense that they’re not being genuine with them, and it’s just not gonna work out.

Theo Hicks: On that note, we’ve just released a blog post about how to create a thought leadership platform… And not super into details, but how to structure it, why you should create one, and basically everything you just said, but more in a step-by-step fashion. Again, you’re constantly talking about how important it is to have a thought leadership platform, which is basically what you do, but for all investors in general… They can highly benefit from that. If you wanna read that blog post, I think it’s called “A Guide To Creating a Thought Leadership Platform.” We can include the links, as well.

Joe Fairless: I had a seven-minute conversation with someone yesterday or two days ago, who went to, filled out the form… He’s a doctor in New York, New Jersey, and it was short, because at the end I said, “Well, are there any additional questions?” Because I had learned about him, and then I asked, “Hey, now what can I answer for you?” He’s like, “Well, I listen to you every day, so I’ve got a pretty good sense of who you are and what your company is all about… So I’m good.” I’m like, “Okay, cool.” And that’s the power of the thought leadership platform when you do it consistently over a long period of time. Because I guarantee you he wasn’t listening two years ago when I had only a hundred or however many episodes, because no one was listening two years ago…

Theo Hicks: Except for your family and your dog.

Joe Fairless: Except for my family and my dog, yeah. You weren’t even listening two years ago. So when we do it consistently over a long period of time, that’s whenever we see those results, and we get those types of responses when we’re having initial conversations with people.

Theo Hicks: I think one of the first things you told me at our first meeting at McDonald’s was about your thought leadership platform. At the time you just called it a podcast, and what stuck with me was you were like, “Oh, I love to network while I’m asleep, across the entire world.” So you talk to people, and talking to people when sleeping. I thought that was…

Joe Fairless: Yeah, absolutely.

Theo Hicks: I think our next topic kind of ties into this one, because she was asking about how to get people interested in your deals and your business if you haven’t done a syndication deal yet… And one of the answers is having an experienced team. You were mentioning how you’ve got a meetup this week, and if someone came in who was trying to do a big deal, and the kind of takeaway from it was that if you would have partnered with the experienced broker, you might have been able to get the deal. Do you wanna tell that story?

Joe Fairless: Yeah. I host a monthly meetup in Cincinnati, and Cincinnati, for people who are geographically challenged, is not that close to Detroit, Michigan. It depends on how you look at it. It’s certainly not a walking distance, it’s not a convenient drive either. How far is it drive-wise, like four hours maybe?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, it’s four, five hours.

Joe Fairless: Four, five hours, okay. So it’s four, five hours away. So picture four, five hours away from wherever you live, and that’s how far the distance is. Well, we had three people fly in from Detroit to attend the meetup, which is incredible. I love that. So I wanted to make sure I spent some time with them at the meetup, because they came from so far away. And one of them — I’ve actually interviewed him on the podcast… A tremendously successful real estate investor, who has had success in single families up to perhaps around the 50 or so unit, somewhere within that range… And his question was “How do I get traction in taking it to the next level? How do I get the next level deals, the 100+ unit deals?”

My answer – and this answer also goes to the question “How do you go from single-families to the larger stuff?”, well, the main challenge you’re gonna have is lack of credibility and experience… And that comes at you in multiple fronts. That comes at you from the investor front; people aren’t gonna invest with you if you don’t have the credibility and the experience. At the lender front – the lenders are not gonna lend to you if you don’t have that track record or experience… And just the overall finding the deal. The brokers aren’t going to help you find a deal or won’t be as motivated to help you find a deal if you don’t have the track record and experience, because what do brokers want? Brokers want the fastest closing at the highest price, in the most assured way. So they want a guaranteed close as quickly as possible. And a guaranteed close, as quickly as possible, a person who’s never closed a deal and not sure if they have the money – hm, let me think about that…

Theo Hicks: [unintelligible [00:11:57].29]

Joe Fairless: Yeah, exactly. You go with someone else. So here’s the solution to that, and that is aligning yourself with the people who do have that experience, and I’ll give you some specific examples, because Whitney is asking “How do you get people interested if you do not have a deal yet, especially if you haven’t done a syndication before?” Then this gentleman at the meetup was basically asking the same thing. Well, you partner with people who do have the experience, and here’s some specific ways to do that.

One is you can partner with the property management company that you’re working with, and they can then bring their own money in the deal. That shows that “Hey, I might not have the experience, but this management company that manages 1,000 or 10,000 units and has done this before in this market – they like the deal so much that they’re actually putting their own money in it.”

Another thing you can do is have that property management company not only put their money in it, but bring their investors’ money in it. That adds another level of alignment and credibility to the deal, so that when you’re talking to your investors, you can say their management company is doing it, plus they’re bringing their investors because they like it so much. So that’s one way, and we have done that. We did that starting out. We partnered with a management company on the first couple deals, and that allowed us to leverage their track record and also some of their investor base to then close on larger deals. We gave up equity, but so what? That’s how you get started. So that’s one way.

Another way is to have a consultant who has experience and then have them as a board member on the deal. That at least provides a somewhat level of comfort to the investors. Now, a savvy investor will say “Yeah, he’s a board member, but is he actually putting money in the deal?”, he or she, whoever you bring on… And if they’re not, then they’re not; they’re just another level of guidance, and you’ll have to be transparent with them about that.

And then the third way – and this goes to the meetup guy and that story you were referencing – brokers. What I did on my very first syndication is that I had the brokers put in their commission into the deal to invest alongside with us, and that showed alignment of interest and that allowed me, who had four single-family homes as my experience, to then talk to my investors and say “I know I’ve got those four single-family homes and that’s it, but we’ve got the brokers who have eighty or so years experience combined. They’re putting their commission into the deal; they like it so much and they’re investing alongside with us.”

So somewhere in this equation you’ve gotta have alignment of interest, and ideally in multiple points. The story that you were referencing with the gentleman who attended the meetup – he said he had just lost out on a deal, but he was right there in the purchase price, but he lost out on it, and after I told him about the broker story, he’s like “Oh, man… You know what?” I said “What?”, he said “The broker who is representing the seller, he told me multiple times ‘Man, I wanna start doing what you’re doing once I get some of these commissions, once I have some money. I really wanna get involved in this stuff.” And the guy I’m talking to was like, “Oh, if I would have just suggested ‘Well, how about you partner with us, you put in some of your commission – that doesn’t have to be all of it – into the deal, I’ll bring you in on the GP side if we get awarded this deal.” Do you think that would have increased his chances?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, it totally would.

Joe Fairless: Totally. Yeah, 100% it would have increased his chances, and he probably would have gotten it. Hell, I don’t know; he might not have, but it would have increased his chances. So those are ways to show your investors, the lenders and brokers that you are bringing an experienced team to the table, even though you might not have that experience.

Theo Hicks: So it’s just as simple as knowing that, and then just having that conversation with a broker or the property management company?

Joe Fairless: Yeah.

Theo Hicks: That’s all it is, you just ask him “Would you consider doing this?”

Joe Fairless: Yeah. And worst case, if I’m starting out worst-case, if the management company is like, “No, I’m not gonna invest my own money, and I’m also not going to bring in our investors… You don’t have any experience, why would I do that?” If they say that, assuming that they’re the right management company that I really like, I’m gonna give them some equity. I don’t care, I just want that talking point. I want the talking point to investors, I want that alignment of interest. I’ll still give them some equity, and that way I force the alignment; whether they want to align or not, I still force it and I believe by giving them some equity, they’re still gonna be more motivated and aligned with us than if they were just fee-based.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, it sounds like you’ve gotta kind of just push your own end and you’ve gotta just do what you’ve gotta do to get that first deal under your belt, so that you can use that as your talking point moving forward. If you’ve gotta give away equity, if you’ve gotta bring on other partners that you don’t wanna bring on, or whatever it is… That’s good advice.

Awesome, so let’s move on to some updates. Do you have any updates or observations from your own business for the past week?

Joe Fairless: I think that was the observation. We’re closing on our deal next Wednesday; 6th December is when we’re scheduled to close. So that’s gonna be a big milestone; that will be the largest from a purchase price standpoint deal that we’ve done, and that’s been the main focus.

Theo Hicks: So once you close on that deal, how many deals is that this year?

Joe Fairless: That will be six.

Theo Hicks: And before this year, how many deals have you done?

Joe Fairless: Before this year, that would be seven.

Theo Hicks: Okay, so you’ve basically doubled your portfolio in one year; that’s awesome. So for me, again, not many updates either. I think I’ve mentioned this last week, but I finally got the operating agreement from the attorney to put all the properties into individual LLC’s, so I’m working on that process, setting up individual bank accounts, and I’m gonna assign that here, and then I’ll probably have that and go live, so to speak, in January… I’ve been putting all the money in one bank account this year, so [unintelligible [00:17:59].21] I’m just gonna continue doing this throughout the end of the year, and then starting 1st January I’m gonna start putting them into individual bank accounts.

Joe Fairless: How many? Three, I guess..

Theo Hicks: Three, yeah.

Joe Fairless: Okay. The same bank, but just different accounts within the same bank, that way you can log into one, and…

Theo Hicks: Exactly, you log into one and all three will be there. For me, whenever I had an expense, I just had a little spreadsheet and I’d log it in there; I say what it was, what building it was for… So I already have all that tracked already, so it won’t be — it’s not like I’ll have to introduce a whole new system of tracking; the only difference would be for the checkbooks, three different bank accounts instead of one.

Joe Fairless: Just from a very minor logistical thing, what bank do you use?

Theo Hicks: PNC.

Joe Fairless: Do they allow you to use one login to then look at multiple accounts?

Theo Hicks: Yes.

Joe Fairless: Okay, good. Some of them don’t. Fifth Third doesn’t, but Chase does. I’ve found this out the hard way sometimes, so… Since you’ve already got that covered, then you’re good.

Theo Hicks: That would be tough, to have to–

Joe Fairless: Yeah, it’s just annoying, having three separate logins for one bank, but you’re good then.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, and one other thing that we’re gonna be talking about in more detail next week, but I’m considering putting my properties under a management company, and I was just mentioning beforehand how I’m really glad… Or I guess the point is that it’s really important that when you underwrite your deal initially, even if you plan on managing it yourself – I know everyone says this, but I’m just reiterating it for myself – is that you have to put in that property management percentage, whatever it’s going to be, just in case you end up putting them under a management company at some point… Or if you plan on managing them for five years, at some point you are probably gonna put them under a management company if your goal is to have financial freedom or whatever it is.

So it’s important to do that, because I kind of just like went back to my cashflow calculator and deleted that number, and I looked at what the return was, and I would have been very disappointed if I didn’t do that beforehand. So like, “Oh, this is the best deal on the planet, a huge return” and then “Oh man, now I’m putting them under a management company and now that return is all gonna be gone.”

Joe Fairless: What are you factoring in to pay them to manage twelve units?

Theo Hicks: I put in 10%.

Joe Fairless: That’s healthy.

Theo Hicks: Yeah. I think it’s gonna be lower than that, because the guy that I would consider using, he says they’re between 6% and 8%, but I just put in 10% just because. I like to be very conservative, especially now that I’ve seen some of the maintenance issues that come with these older properties that I will be buying… I just wanna keep as much room as possible, so…

Joe Fairless: How did you find the guy that you’re looking to bring on as the management?

Theo Hicks: How did I find him…?

Joe Fairless: Is it just a guy and his dog and a truck, or is it a company?

Theo Hicks: No, it’s a company. He just started his company. I think you know who he is. I think he goes to your meetup. I think through Bigger Pockets…

Joe Fairless: Okay, got it.

Theo Hicks: I just reached out through Bigger pockets, we’ve gotten coffee a couple times… He invests in the area; I think he’s got 12 units in Oakley and in Pleasant Ridge, and he started his management company maybe two years ago. I got lunch with him maybe six months ago and I was just picking his brain, because I wanted to know exactly what he did, just so when I wanted to use him I would be like “Oh, I know exactly what he does and  how the process works.” I was actually looking up his number before I came in, and I’ll give him a call and see if it’s something he’d be interested in doing.

Joe Fairless: Good stuff. Nice. Well, moving from working in your business versus on your business, right?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, I was thinking about it a lot, because obviously 8% of your rent, for this specific property, it drops the cash-on-cash return by about 3% or 4%.

Joe Fairless: From what to what?

Theo Hicks: From 16% to 12%.

Joe Fairless: Okay.

Theo Hicks: And I was thinking, I’m just like, “Okay, so I continue to manage them myself, but [unintelligible [00:21:32].08]

Joe Fairless: Emotional energy?

Theo Hicks: And how much emotional energy am I putting towards it? I think I mentioned the last week, like whenever my phone rings or my phone buzzes, I’m just like “Uh-oh, something happened… I’ve gotta go over there”, and it kind of just like throws a wrench in your day. I know my personality type and I’m very routine, and if something comes in that is unexpected, I don’t say I’ll get flustered, but it changes up my entire day. I’m just like, “Oh no, here we go…”

So I think that now by, as you said, working outside the business, I can focus more on finding deals, and I enjoy the finding deals, I enjoy the closing process, the inspection process… I didn’t really like the day-to-day management of it, so if I can outsource that… Now, obviously there’s a little bit of return, but to gain all that extra emotional energy and motivation to look for deals and do all the parts that I like, I can just pass this on to a property management company. Obviously, I’ll check in with them continuously, but… I think from a long-term perspective, obviously that’s gonna be more manageable, because I don’t think it’s gonna be possible for me to, once I get to 24 units or 100 units for me to do what I’m doing now… So I might as well put the systems in early, so I know what returns I’m gonna get, how the process works, instead of doing it way later on down the road.

Joe Fairless: Yes, I love that.

Theo Hicks: I can tell whenever we talk about it, that look in your eyes, you’re just like “He’s gonna do this eventually…” [laughter]

Joe Fairless: Well, but you said when the phone rings you get a bad feeling… Sometimes that’s a good thing, when something triggers you and you’re just like “Oh, no…”, because now it’s pushing you to make things happen and change it. It reminds me of when — Tony Robbins in his early days had a conference, and it was right next to train tracks… And they’d be in the middle of something, and then he’d hear the train go “Choo-choo!” and it would just interrupt everything, and people getting pissed about it… And he’s like, “Well, we can’t change the train–“, in this case you can change and you’ll change it, but in some cases if something’s happening and you just can’t change it at the time, it’s repositioning it in your mind to then be a good thing, so what he did is he said, “You know what, everyone? We’re gonna celebrate everytime we hear this train go “Choo-choo…”, and that’s what he did. That’s one of the things in Unleash The Power Within, they do a train whistle and then you just celebrate for no good reason.

It reminds me of — we have in my house right now our freezer, and it makes this weird whistle thing and the fan is going out… We’ve had a guy come out and look at it, and he replaced the fan and now it’s whistling twice as much. Just an annoying thing, and [unintelligible [00:24:03].04] when it whistles, how you stop and you have to actually punch it, and then it stops. So I got all bloody knuckles because it got me more than I got it.

But now what I do – and by the way, there’s a guy here again to fix it today, and apparently they’re replacing the fan at no cost, because the other one didn’t work, obviously… But now what I do when it whistles, after I go and punch it and it stops whistling, I then go kiss Colleen. So now every time it whistles, we get excited because then I punch it, but then I go kiss her, and now it’s a good thing, but before we were totally annoyed by it…

So just changing your mind, but in some cases it’s good not to do the positive association, because then it forces you to action.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, that’s a great idea [unintelligible [00:24:44].15] I need to start doing that for — I mean, this is way off-topic, but for our dog… Whenever the dog barks, I get so annoyed, but now whenever it happens, I’ll just…

Joe Fairless: …go kiss Marcella. [laughs]

Theo Hicks: [unintelligible [00:25:01].08]

Joe Fairless: I love it, good stuff.

Theo Hicks: Alright, a couple other things. We had a pretty big interview with Tony…

Joe Fairless: Tony Hsieh, the Zappos CEO. Yes, and lessons learned there for me – a couple of them. This is more on behind the scenes type of stuff. One is… I don’t know if we’re gonna be able to use that episode, and the reason why is because there’s some beeping sound that was happening, and he heard it and I heard it, and there was something with his microphone, I’m not sure what… Hopefully our audio guys will be able to clean that up. I’m not sure, but hopefully they do.

So I guess the lesson is don’t be self-conscious about a big-time person not wanting to reschedule with you — because I didn’t want to stop it. I told him, I was like “Hey, do you hear that?”, and he was like, “Yeah, I hear it too.” Normally, with 99% of the guests I’d be like, “Okay, we need to stop and maybe call back in, and if that doesn’t work, we’ll reschedule.” But with him, I was so worried about not being able to get on the phone with him again…  Five years ago he invested 350 million dollars in redeveloping downtown Las Vegas, and this is a big-time guy, so I didn’t stop the conversation. I should have. Hopefully the audio guys can fix it. So I guess the takeaway is have more confidence in people wanting to talk to you.

The second thing is that we got a record number of questions submitted from Best Ever listeners for Tony… And by the way, Best Ever listeners, if you wanna know where to do that for future guests, join the Best Ever Facebook Community; that’s where we post about that stuff.

No way could I have asked all of them, but in our reply to each of those people we said “We’re on it. We’ve got your question.” So we over-promised, and from a Q&A standpoint, I didn’t get to ask all the questions because there was no way I could have and still had an actual conversation with him. It would have just been way too mechanical.

So the lesson I took away from that is don’t over-promise with people and not be able to deliver. So what I did was I identified the questions that could easily be found in articles on previous interviews, and we’re just gonna link to those for the people who ask those types of questions, and the other ones – I pretty much got to the ones that weren’t easily googleable.

So yeah, he’s a super next-level smart guy, computer science major, went to Harvard, and venture capitalist, all sorts of things. It was a great conversation. We’ll see how from an audio standpoint it turned out.

Theo Hicks: I think we’ve mentioned this, but I wanna reiterate it again – it’s called The Best Ever Show Community. Just search that on Facebook and join that. There’s videos there, the blogs, and it’s mostly just a community of real estate investors who are just getting to know each other… You definitely wanna join that. And as Joe said, when we have exclusive interviews coming up, that’s where you can ask any question you want to these exclusive guests.

Joe Fairless: Perhaps… We’ll select from some.

Theo Hicks: And then make sure you guys go to and secure your ticket for that; it’s coming up in February, in Denver, Colorado. The second annual. And then as usual, we’re gonna do our Review Of The Week, so make sure you go on iTunes and subscribe, and then leave a review for your opportunity to get a shoutout. This week we’ve got Capital Impact, and he says:

“I actually found Joe through other podcasts I listen to. It was on a podcast on multifamily syndication. Joe gives great advice and help to the startup investor.”

Joe Fairless: A help to the startup investor. Sweet. Well, thank you sir, or madam – I don’t know if you’re a sir or a madam; thank you for that, and I appreciate the reviews. As I’ve mentioned before, that helps us get better quality guests, because they see the reviews on iTunes, and it helps the overall quality of the show.

Well, thanks everyone. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you tomorrow.

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