Neil Wahlgren is a partner at MAG Capital Partners, which focuses on triple-net leased industrial properties, lease structures, and tenants. In this episode, Neil shares his insights on investing in triple-net leased industrial properties, how a multifamily syndicator can pivot into this asset class, and what to look for when qualifying single tenants.
Neil Wahlgren | Real Estate Background
- Partner at MAG Capital Partners, which focuses on triple-net leased industrial properties, lease structures, and tenants.
- Portfolio:
- Industrial triple-net leased real estate
- Short-term rentals
- Multifamily syndications
- Based in: San Francisco, CA
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker
- Greatest Lesson: Communicate your mistakes with the same level of transparency as your successes.
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TRANSCRIPT
Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Neil Wahlgren. Neil is joining us from San Francisco, California. He is a partner at Mag Capital Partners, which focuses on single tenant net lease development and sale leasebacks structured primarily in the industrial sector. They focus on lease structure and tenants more so than the real estate itself. Neil's portfolio consists of industrial triple net leases and-short term rentals and multifamily syndications. Neil has also served as a Navy and Air Force Pilot flying C-130s. Neil, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Neil Wahlgren: Doing great, Ash. Thanks for having me.
Ash Patel: It's our pleasure. Neil, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Neil Wahlgren: Yeah, absolutely. So like you mentioned there, California native; I grew up in the suburbs of San Francisco, and really just needed something a little more exciting in life, so I went to the Air Force Academy, and ended up flying C-130s, both the active Air Force, and the Navy Reserve for almost 11 years. Combat tours to Iraq and Afghanistan, I lived in Japan for about five years in Tokyo, and got to spend my 20s the way any 20-year old should if they get the opportunity.
Ash Patel: Thank you for your service.
Neil Wahlgren: Yeah, absolutely. And kind of through chance - I have some friends, and you find when you're on a long overwater flight, and you have a lot of talk time with the copilot sitting next to you, and started meeting some guys, especially in the reserves, who were investing a little bit on their own, doing turnkey single-family investments, and a number of other ones, and got started in the real estate game in that way, buying a couple of turnkey investment homes in Indianapolis area. And then ultimately got out of the flying world and hopped around a couple of startups and ended up eventually getting into a startup focused on raising private equity through accredited investors, and we would JV with commercial real estate partners for different projects.
Ash Patel: What asset classes?
Neil Wahlgren: On that previous firm we would partner with really sponsors who had deep expertise in their asset classes. We had one partner who was in multi tenant retail just in the Dallas Fort Worth area, another multifamily operator who'd just do B class properties in northeast Atlanta... So really kind of niched there. And through some relationships we partnered with Mag Capital Partners, and their focus was really specific industrial triple net lease investments acquired through sale leaseback.
Ash Patel: What was your role at the startup before Mag?
Neil Wahlgren: I started in operations and eventually was running the firm as president there.
Ash Patel: And how long has Mag been in triple net industrial properties?
Neil Wahlgren: Mag was founded in 2015 by Dax Mitchell and Andrew G. Both of them have really about 20+ years of commercial brokerage experience, where [unintelligible 00:04:19.26] and they've been doing industrial since about 2005, both direct acquisitions and acquiring through sale leaseback.
Ash Patel: Okay, so 2015, good time for industrial. Are there any plans to pivot? Industrial's still on fire, but there's gonna come a day where it's not, potentially. Are they looking at other asset classes as well?
Neil Wahlgren: We always do. At the end of the day, we're real estate investors first; we're brokers. From our perspective, it probably has at least three or four more good years ahead of it. But like all asset classes, they ebb and flow, and there's gonna be a time when industrial's heavily overpriced, and other asset classes make more sense from an opportunity standpoint.
Ash Patel: Today, do you look at any other asset classes? Do you look at retail, multifamily, mobile home parks?
Neil Wahlgren: Yes, we do probably about 80% of our business, kind of our core product, industrial net lease investments. The remaining 20% are what I call opportunistic, and that ranges from - we do some developments, some value-add short term rental type stuff, we have a JV partner, we do some larger multifamily stuff down in the Inland Empire in California... And these are ways that we kind of augment where when we see opportunity, our hands are not tied specifically around industrial, but we can be opportunistic when the right deals come along.
Ash Patel: Got it. And how big of a value-add play would you chase? Or is it mostly parking capital?
Neil Wahlgren: We like repositions. So for instance, we bought a interesting project that was changing hands from an ownership standpoint in Moab, Utah. And that deal, it was a number of new build short-term rentals; kind of unique. It was really the only new build short-term rental property that has a short-term rental license. The city put a moratorium on future licenses out there. So we saw a huge opportunity. And this property, not only does it have active units that are up and running right now, but it had a basically pre-permitted land that was pre permitted for an additional up to 60 or 70 units. So we're actually going to expand on what's there, and reposition it, and look to sell in a couple of years.
Ash Patel: It's like having the only gold mine in town.
Neil Wahlgren: It kind of is, yeah.
Ash Patel: Good.
Neil Wahlgren: And most people are like "Moab, Utah...?"
Ash Patel: What's your minimum deal size?
Neil Wahlgren: These days our primary investment vehicle is our funds. So most of our industrial deals fall under funds, which are between about 50 and 75 million in equity, levered up to about 200 million in real estate. On the individual deals, typically they will range in equity spliced between about 4 and 15 million.
Ash Patel: Got it. So, Neil, let's take multifamily syndicators today... A number of them are pivoting because of the increased competition, the compressed cap rates... They're going to mobile home parks, self storage. How does a multifamily syndicator pivot into industrial? How do they learn, how do they partner with the right people? How do they raise capital for it, and how do they find lenders for that?
Neil Wahlgren: Great question. I would say a lot of the variables to look at when potentially pivoting asset classes are the same ones, those same operators they probably looked at when they first got into multifamily. Really, it's finding strategic partners, finding partners that know this space well, that you can go and JV with, do some sort of partnership with to kind of learn the ropes
Industrial's interesting; there's a lot less operational focus on the real estate, and a lot more focus on both the strength of the lease and the quality of your tenant. So almost all of these properties have a single tenant, and long-term, typically 15-20 year absolute triple net leases. So those two become the primary focus, as opposed to doing capital improvements, and managing occupancy, and vacancy rates that are more prevalent in the multifamily world.
Ash Patel: And you don't need a leasing agent, and you don't need a maintenance person and a property manager. [laughs]
Neil Wahlgren: All self-managed. Trust me, the first time you go on a triple net deal and realize 100% of your expenses are taken care of directly by your tenants... That's a completely refreshing new way to look at what real estate can look like.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Funny story - my very first property a dozen years ago was a mixed-use building. A store had kind of a net lease; college kids were destroying my apartments above... I saw the store owner replacing all the HVAC units in my building on their dime.
Neil Wahlgren: Right?!
Ash Patel: And I kind of freaked out... I didn't know how much this was gonna cost me. So I go downstairs, and I ask the store owner like, "Hey, what's going on?" He's like, "Yeah, our A.C went out, so I just replaced the entire HVAC unit." And I'm like, "Damn, alright..." And as I'm leaving, he asks me if he can remodel the bathroom. I'm like "Oh, my God. Here I am, unclogging a tenant's toilet upstairs..." So I learned that early on - commercial tenants improve your space.
Neil, you talked about single tenants. Now, how do you qualify that single tenant? Do you make sure that they have multiple locations? Do you look at their financials? How long have they been in business? Is it a mom and pop operator?
Neil Wahlgren: Great questions there. That single tenant, that variable is frightening to some folks, because your vacancy and occupancy become more binary. You're either fully leased or 0% leased. However, most of these [unintelligible 00:09:45.02] when you're buying the properties typically will have a tenant in place. And now you have an opportunity to really take that out and understand the strength of what we call tenant credit. So that can range; a huge amount of specialties will focus on that. You have public credit tenants, that are going to be your Amazons, and your Ford, or whatever. Those are going to have a very public evaluation on what that credit looks like, and you have a pretty objective view on what your confidence is that your tenant like that will pay rent.
Conversely, you have private credit tenants, and those are typically what we work with. So on those, we actually have a full underwriting credit team in-house. We will work typically two to three months with that tenant; we look at historical financial statements, p&l, balance sheets, we look at coverage ratios and their ability to cover their both fixed costs and operational costs... We also look at what kind of debt load does that company have. Are they highly leveraged? Is that interest rate environment that's increasing going to impact their ability to stay in business? Or do they have really low debt, where they could probably weather a financial recession or storm, and still come out on the other side?
So from a scope standpoint, you mentioned are they mom and pop or not; on our last funds, 75% or 80% of our tenants did over 100 million a year in revenue. So these are not mom and pop shops, for the most part; most have been around 50, 60, 70 years or more, and employ a decent amount of people and have that operational history.
Ash Patel: Will the private tenants open up their books to you?
Neil Wahlgren: They have to. Really, we would be taking on an unknown amount of risk if we weren't able to see what their financials looked like. So sometimes we get them sanitized, or a summary level, because they want to keep some of that industry corporate advantage, and we understand that. But ultimately, we need to make sure that they frankly have the revenue, and consistency, and EBITA that we know that they can comfortably cover their rent obligation.
Ash Patel: And I'm assuming you currently buy to hold long term, or do you dispose of assets as well?
Neil Wahlgren: Yeah, like any industry, you're gonna have a little bit of a mix of both. In general, we have stabilized assets, where -- the way I consider that, you have a super-strong tenant, they are in place; your lease is typically 15-20 years in term. And on those I might hold 5, 6, 7 years. And that's gonna allow me to produce good yield. There's rent bumps built into the lease, so every year I know with a high degree of certainty that my cash flow is increasing. And then when I go to sell, I've still got maybe 13-15 years left to turn on that lease. There's a lot of buyers still interested in that. When the next buyer buys the building, they assume that lease and they assume the remaining term on there.
Conversely, we're able to add value sometimes. Sometimes we'll buy a property with sometimes multiple leases, and we're able to consolidate them under a single triple net lease... When we do that, that's really our industry's equivalent of a value-add. So at that point, we produced a decent lift in terms of the final value of that property, and we might hold that for a shorter amount of time and try to capture that value quicker.
Ash Patel: Now, historically, having those 15-20 year leases has been very beneficial, because the next buyer has that security that they're buying. Today, with prices going up, inflation, what are your thoughts on that? We now look for properties that have expiring leases more so than multiple lease renewals, because the rents haven't been raised, they're not in line with the current market rents. So isn't it a detriment to have such a long-term lease, with renewals built in?
Neil Wahlgren: Great question. Several factors to look at, right? The first is what are those renewals? Are those renewals keeping up with inflation? Are they keeping up with historic inflation? Most of these are long-term plays. Historically, we would look for 2% annual bumps. Now we're closer to about 2.5% or 3%, based on some of the above average inflation we're seeing.
However, something important to look at is, even if we're, say, losing out to inflation from a rent perspective, we are insulated from corresponding increases and expenses. So on a triple net lease, my insurance goes up if my building maintenance costs go up - which they do, right? ...if my property taxes go up... All those things will continue to rise, but those are paid directly by my tenant. So I'm protected from the inflationary effects of my expenses, but only benefit from the rent bumps built into my revenue. So it's a much more predictable model, frankly, that that rent more directly correlates to NOI, compared to rent minus expenses in a more traditional investment type.
Ash Patel: Thank you for that. So the only variable that you really contend with is your debt structure. What kind of debt goes on these properties, typically?
Neil Wahlgren: We're typically putting in fixed rate debt. So ultimately, that gives us a cash flow yield spread, that effectively is the difference between rents and our fixed rate debt; so we lock in those variables, so now we can hold that property long term, and we know with a high degree of certainty what I'm going to be able to distribute out to our LPs. Ultimately, our debt is going to be fixed rate for five to seven years. Typically a 10-year term; in today's environment obviously everything shifts and moves pretty regularly, but we're seeing 5% to 6% interest rates in [unintelligible 00:15:06.23]
Break: [00:15:10.01]
Ash Patel: In terms of investors, what types of returns can they expect on these types of investments?
Neil Wahlgren: Good question. Two factors. One is that yield you're gonna get every year during the hold period from that rent; that yield cash on cash is going to look typically between about 7% and 9%. And that's going to escalate every year as the rent pumps kick in. And then on the back side, you're going to have a profit participation, usually selling around years four, five, six, somewhere in there. So all-in historically, we typically project about a 15%, 16% IRR, and we've been able to deliver closer to 20% historically. But all things considered, the last couple of years have been good.
Ash Patel: In regards to location, what's the most important? Is it still last-mile delivery? Is it near interstates, near a workforce, near an airport?
Neil Wahlgren: Your location is important, but in a different way. We don't really care about traffic count. I don't care how good the schools are. Frankly, I don't even care if there's crime in the area. That's where industrial is, right? There are going to be not the nicest part of town, they're not going to be in areas you probably want to live. But instead, they're going to be areas with good bases on the land, and more important, good access to a labor force. So typically, they're going to be in secondary or tertiary cities, or what I call commutable-primary cities, where there'll be far enough out where they can still get that labor force required for the operations for that company.
Ash Patel: How important is proximity to interstates?
Neil Wahlgren: I would say decent. Most of these tenants are manufacturers; they're making products. They're either going to get those typically nationwide to their customers through primarily trucking, sometimes rail, sometimes a combination of the two. But I would say almost always you're going to want a decent highway access for the outbound and inbound pieces of those businesses.
Ash Patel: Now, when you get into 50,000, 100,000, a couple hundred thousand square foot, is that still manufacturing, or is that more distribution/logistics?
Neil Wahlgren: So most of our properties do a combination of them. So our average building size that we're buying is typically 100,000 to 200,000 square feet, and that's going to have some shipping/receiving, it's going to have typically some storage in there... The majority of it is going to be manufacturing; typically 10% to 20% will be kind of office/admin area. And then those buildings -- it's really interesting, they're typically on an abundance of land, because they are more secondary, tertiary. So sometimes you'll see a primary building that was built maybe 40 years ago, and then they needed more space, added another one, and then another one... So you get these kind of patchwork, quilt-looking properties. But at the end of the day, you still have a single tenant leasing them all out. And really, they've configured that property in a way that works for them. So in that fashion, we're able to have -- I hate the term sticky tenant, but it kind of is. You have a tenant who's really gotten comfortable with that space, built their operations around it, and frankly, looking for that same long-term relationship we are as landlords.
Ash Patel: How hard is it to find a 200,000 square foot industrial tenant?
Neil Wahlgren: To lease up a new one? It depends, right? I would say a lot has to do with the configuration of your building. If your building has wide open spaces, high ceilings, some shipping and receiving and high bay truck doors, you can fit almost any sort of manufacturing operation in there. So you're gonna have a pretty easy, typically 6 to 12-month leasing period, but you should be able to get someone in fairly confidently.
The more special use your building is, like any other asset class - high-end pharmaceutical buildings... For example, we looked at [unintelligible 00:19:43.24] building once. Have you seen those? It looks like a vehicular vending machine.
Ash Patel: Yeah...
Neil Wahlgren: And we're like "What if we lost this tenant? What would we do with this?" "I don't know..." So those are examples of how you can mitigate that releasing risk, should the need ever occur.
Ash Patel: I still feel better about having multiple tenants. Why go single-tenant when you can have some diversity?
Neil Wahlgren: Well, we got that feedback, and we've since transitioned our industrial into a diversified fund. So our first fund had approximately 15 diverse independent properties, with 15 different tenants, each with a different credit profile... Almost all the tenants were in independent, different industries. So a huge amount of diversification across that side to give it more of a multi-tenant risk structure that maybe a multifamily investor is more used to.
Ash Patel: Got it. Now, let's think about some of the smaller investors. Maybe some of our Best Ever listeners that want to pivot into industrial, they're looking at maybe a flex space warehouse that's 10,000 to 50,000 square feet. What should they look for?
Neil Wahlgren: That's a great question. When you start getting into flex industrial, you're gonna look at a lot more of the same factors as, say, a multi-tenant retail building. You're going to look at TIs... You might have either a double net, or maybe a limited triple net lease, but you're typically as the owner going to be responsible for the exterior and outside areas on that building... And you're going to have some occupancy.
In my last firm, we bought a large industrial park in Houston that had 114 different tenants; it was massive. We had two full-time property managers. And on those, it was much more of the same mindset as buying a multi tenant retail space. So for a newer investor, you can have large industrial space, or something small that might have two or three properties. Just bear in mind, those smaller buildings are usually going to have more smaller credit tenants; you're going to have mom and pop tenants that have weaker credit... And one thing that they can do to reinforce the security on those, especially in this model, is to ask for personal guarantees from the owner of those companies. That's a way to provide some backing. Or ask for a larger security deposit going in, to say "Hey, instead of the usual one month - your credit's kind of small; you guys only do maybe a mil or two a year in revenue, so I might ask for 6 or 12 months of security deposit to kind of de-risk some of that risk" that comes from having a smaller tenant there.
Ash Patel: Neil, do you do a lot of sale leasebacks?
Neil Wahlgren: We do. Yeah, probably 70%.
Ash Patel: Interesting. Can you explain the benefits of that, and exactly what it is, to our Best Ever listeners?
Neil Wahlgren: Yeah, so the fundamental core of a sale leaseback is rather than buy a stabilized property on the market, where you are buying the property and assuming the in-place lease with the in-place tenants, the leaseback is where you are buying the property from an owner-occupant. So usually what happens is you have a manufacturing company that owns the warehouse they operate out of, and they're looking for an alternate source of capital, typically to grow their business or pay down debt. So they will look to potentially source that capital from the sale of that building, and that simultaneous leaseback. So we will execute both a purchase agreement and then also a lease agreement simultaneously in those operations.
Ash Patel: It's a great point, it's very important to discern this... So oftentimes business owners will sell their property, lease it back, like you said, because they need the capital for something. Or a lot of times they are positioning their company for a sale. They want to reduce debt, offload the real estate. How do you discern if they truly need the capital, or if they're doing a pump and dump? If they signed a brand new 10-year lease, maybe a five-year lease, just so they can get that high dollar amount, and at the end of five years not renew, and good luck?
Neil Wahlgren: Yeah, and that is the charter of our credit guys. So they come in and they need to understand the why behind it. And a lot of these guys - -typically, a lot of resellers will have private equity backers. Usually, there's some background activity going on there, with a private equity roll-up acquisition... And often, those groups are much more interested in growing the operating company, less interested in being real estate owners. So we will look at both the terms of the sale and leaseback, and we'll look at where's this money going, like you said.
So I would say 9 times out of 10 that money is going to pay down debt, long-term debt revolver that's coming due, and that's a way for them to deleverage debt that stays on their balance sheet. Now, on their balance sheet they've significantly reduced the amount of corporate debt, and in return taken on a more conventional rental obligation through that long-term lease, which frankly makes their balance sheet more healthy and attractive for sourcing other types of business activities.
Ash Patel: You sound like you've been in this industry for 20 years. It's only been 7 or 8, right? Good for you, man. You're a wealth of knowledge.
Neil Wahlgren: Yeah, it's been a while. Thank you.
Ash Patel: Awesome. Well, Neil, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Neil Wahlgren: Ultimately, partner, partner, partner. I think 1,000% every time I've had a major stage of growth in my personal development, and people close to me, it's when you find the right team to partner up with; especially in this industry, going it alone is near impossible. We have to have a diversified crew. I pulled a lot of that from my piloting experience in the Air Force. I had a multi-crew aircraft; each man or woman on the plane there had their own unique specialty, and we just -- frankly, we couldn't operate without having that right set of experts. So I think a lot of that carries over to the real estate space.
Ash Patel: When you're looking at partnering, do you specifically look at filling voids? Or is it just personality - "Man, this person's fun. I can get along with him or her."
Neil Wahlgren: [laughs] It's easy to find drinking buddies; hard to find -- it's hard to find someone who [unintelligible 00:25:48.01] But to your point, I think the void is more important. And frankly, to turn that around, "How can you condition yourself to fill someone else's missing piece there?" Find out what industry you want to go into... Take industrial, right? We have acquisition side; we have lending side, we have capital raising, we have credit, we have admin and finance... All those are different, unique skill sets, and find out if you're looking to join that industry, find which sounds most enticing to you, and become the best expert you can on it. And then, as you're seeking to find a team to join, or even do it yourself, now you have a deep expertise that you can continue to develop.
Ash Patel: Can you share a difficult lesson that you've learned with partnerships?
Neil Wahlgren: Oh, my experience is partnerships are phenomenal. However, control should follow equity. And ultimately, at the end of the day, investors in a deal are the most important stakeholders, and whoever is bringing the bulk of that equity should have the final say on control, so that they can be truly responsible to the outcome of that project, to their investors.
That's a policy we took on in Mag years ago, and it's really helped us, and it's allowed us to look our investors in the eye and go, "Hey, not only am I going to be a good steward of your capital here, but I'm going to only use it in projects that I know that I can make the right decisions for your capital here."
Ash Patel: Very well said, and thank you for sharing that. Neil, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Neil Wahlgren: Let's do it.
Ash Patel: Alright, Neil, what's the Best Ever book you've recently read?
Neil Wahlgren: Recently, Tools of Titans, Tim Ferriss. I'm a little late to the party, I know it came out a couple years ago, but I ate it up. People are fascinating. I'll give you a quick tidbit, 10 seconds... Arnold Schwarzenegger - he's talking about [unintelligible 00:27:38.25] movies, and governors, and weightlifting, but he's passionate about chess. He does daily chess; he meditates. All this kind of wild stuff that I wouldn't have expected from Schwarzenegger there. And each story in there, it's bite-size, typically a couple pages, and you just get these amazing little nuggets of wisdom from some accomplished people.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Tim Ferriss, the human guinea pig...
Neil Wahlgren: Yeah. [laughs] You've gotta respect it.
Ash Patel: Yeah, all his books are incredible. Neil, what's the Best Ever way you like to give back?
Neil Wahlgren: Personally, in a professional sense, I was thinking about this, and I love raising money. I love having relationships with my investors, and it's a personal passion; it's something I do with just a high degree of conviction. And we try to give back through, frankly, bringing investors together, and not just to sell a deal, but bringing investors together to introduce them to each other and form communities. And we [unintelligible 00:28:32.15] a dinner, but we try to do fun stuff. We go deep sea fishing, we've taken our investors to wine country, and we go on property tours... We just find ways to really forge relationships beyond just a singular channel where it started.
Ash Patel: And that's how you get drinking buddies.
Neil Wahlgren: Exactly right. [laughs] They show up right away. I've taken [unintelligible 00:28:52.25] and I love it.
Ash Patel: And it's fun. What a great excuse, right? You have somebody that you truly want to reward, and you have commonalities, you get to know them... And how many people are actually doing that?
Neil Wahlgren: Not a lot.
Ash Patel: They take the investor check, they wire the money in and out, and not often do they take the time to really appreciate and get to know the investor. So man, what an incredible outlook that you have. Thank you. And finally, Neil, what's the best way the Best Ever listeners can reach out to you?
Neil Wahlgren: The best way is, frankly, through our website. We've got magcp.com. Or even just shoot me [unintelligible 00:29:32.24] like the Neil Diamond, or Neil Armstrong, neil [at] magcp.com.
Ash Patel: Awesome. Neil, thank you again for your time today, man. You are a wealth of knowledge with everything industrial. You've opened up a new world for a lot of people, I believe... So thank you again for your time today. Thank you again for your service and sacrifice. Let's get you back on here when you hit some more milestones, or something crazy happens with the industry.
Neil Wahlgren: Sounds great. Thanks for having me, Ash.
Ash Patel: Awesome. Best Ever listeners, thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review, share this podcast with someone you think can benefit from it. Also, follow, subscribe and have a Best Ever day.
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