July 17, 2023

JF3238: Rachael Jones — How to Know It’s Time to Fire Your Property Manager, the Proper Structure for a Property Management Agreement, and Tips for Managing Complicated Value-Add Operations




Rachael Jones is the founder of Clover Capital Group, which syndicates B- and C-class, value-add multifamily and mobile home parks primarily in the Charlotte MSA. In this episode, Rachael shares her journey from being an engineer managing global projects to a real estate investor with $15 million in AUM. She also discusses her creative solution to a mobile home park investment with four vacant lots and lessons she learned from a non-performing property manager.

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Rachael Jones | Real Estate Background

  • Founder of Clover Capital Group
  • Portfolio:
    • 150 units and $15MM AUM
  • Based in: Charlotte, NC
  • Say hi to her at: 
  • Best Ever Book: The Score Takes Care of Itself by Bill Walsh
  • Greatest Lesson: How much value there is in excellent customer service, even for lower-end assets.

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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed, and today I'm joined by Rachel Jones. Rachel is joining us from Charlotte, North Carolina. She's a part time engineering contractor working towards a full-time career in real estate. She's the founder of Clover Capital Group, which syndicates B and C Class value-add multifamily and mobile home parks primarily in the Charlotte MSA. Her current portfolio is 150 units at roughly 15 million in assets under management. Rachel, can you tell us a little bit more about your background and what you're currently focused on?

Rachel Jones: Absolutely, Slocomb. Thanks for having me on, I really appreciate it. So my background is in engineering, started out in design, and slowly worked my way up to being a global manufacturing product owner. So I've got experience managing $15 million portfolios, doing all the day-to-day cat wrangling that most people are used to, and honestly I got into real estate [unintelligible 00:02:23.26] from a financial standpoint, and since then it's been fantastic. We just started buying property here, and I really love making the impact on the neighborhoods.

Slocomb Reed: Buying a property a year. When did you start and what sizes are the properties in your portfolio?

Rachel Jones: Good question. I started in 2016. My husband and I bought the cheapest possible properties we could find. We bought two single family homes for $40,000 total, right next to each other, built-in 1900s, 600 square feet, and pretty much we could not bail on them was kind of the intent. So we bought them in a good area, but we had no idea what we were doing in real estate. So we really wanted to go low-risk for us.

We did all the work ourselves, all the plumbing, changed out sub floor, did all the electrical work; pretty much everything you can do on a house, we did it on those. And since then, they've done fantastic; we're actually renting them out right now for $800 a month.

Slocomb Reed: I own one of those, by the way... Mine's technically 700 square feet, built-in the late 1800s... But also, if you get to the location right, and you buy it right, it's almost difficult to lose money on a property like that in a good location. You started with a couple of very small single family rentals in 2016, doing all the work yourself... What was next?

Rachel Jones: So from there, we found another home. These are all in Gastonia, which is within the Charlotte MSA; we found another single family home, kind of did the same thing there... It was a little bit newer, a little bit bigger, a little bit nicer, but really not that different. And from there, we actually ended up buying a triplex. So we said, "Okay, let's scale this up." We still like the residential loans. We're still doing our full-time day jobs, but we are moving forward and really want to continue investing in our financial freedom long term, and this is working for us.

So as we continue adding, we get bigger and bigger. We ended up going into a six-unit commercial property for the first time. That was in 2020. And that one worked out really well. That's really when I started looking more into commercial, more into larger properties, and thinking maybe this could be my full-time career. And then the year after that is when we got into a mobile home park joint venture through a networking group that I met. Really, I've benefited a lot from COVID, because I started joining commercial Zoom calls, networking groups. I was everywhere on those, and it really helped me learn really fast and really build a great network all across the country, with a variety of people, really quickly.

Slocomb Reed: So you joined a mastermind group?

Rachel Jones: It was an accidental mastermind, I'll call it. It wasn't an official one. I've never actually gone through a mentorship program or any official Pay As You Go program. But I've gotten the benefit of talking to people. Tribe of Titans by Brian Briscoe has been really helpful for me. He had a TGIF Friday that started about the time I was getting started in it, and I've been in that and partnering with him, just working in beta tester on the Tribe of Titans platform and that sort of thing, since it started. And that really helped me. Josie Heron had a nice women's group that she had started about the same time, and I got in on that, which - again, I didn't have to pay anything. It was a group of amazing women really getting together, which helped me have people to talk to, really hear from people who were way more experienced than I was, down to my level of really just kind of getting rolling. It was just really helpful to talk to people and learn as I go.

Slocomb Reed: What did you acquire after the mobile home park?

Rachel Jones: After the mobile home park, I ended up getting into syndication. So I had a partner, Brady Hoffpauir, who I'd worked with at my engineering job, and we'd been chatting about maybe partnering up for the past few years, and he came across a deal that's 20 minutes from my house, a nice 28 unit apartment complex. And I know the area because one, I live here too, and I already invested here, my other properties... So I knew contractors, I knew property managers, I knew everybody we needed to pull it together... I just hadn't done a deal that size before.

So he pulled me in to be asset management and operations, and we partnered on that in 2022. And then I also partnered with [unintelligible 00:06:13.05] and Michael Bernhardt and a large team over there for [unintelligible 00:06:18.03] in Tulsa. That was more so I could see how a larger property was operating, and really get to be part of a GP team that's operating on a larger scale than I had previously imagined I would try to be operating on, and learn a lot from them. So by doing both last year, I've really been able to learn a lot and kind of accelerate my education.

Slocomb Reed: Rachel, within your partnerships on the larger properties - the mobile home park, the Charlotte syndication and the Tulsa syndication, I can imagine the skill set that you bring given your background and soup to nuts renovating houses yourself prior to getting into these deals. What are your primary responsibilities within those partnerships?

Rachel Jones: Mainly executing the business plan. My biggest thing is I know all the moving pieces, I can keep all the plates in the air as we're going through, and I know when to change direction. So for example, the 28th unit that we purchased last year, we ended up switching property managers three months after closing. To be able to make that kind of a decision that quickly, you really have to be able to know what you're looking at, and know "Okay, this is just not going to work. I need to pull the ripcord and make that change." Because if you just keep trying to patch that back together, in some cases it makes sense to patch it back together, and other cases it doesn't. But in order to execute the business plan, you really have to know when to cut your losses and to change the direction, and when to continue down and just kind of push through the pain.

Slocomb Reed: I want to ask about that experience in particular, changing Property Management, after three months. That is quick. Backing into that question though, it sounds like, to some degree, you are sought after to be doing this asset management in some of these partnerships. Why is it that that was a fit for you? Why is it that's what people wanted to bring you onto their partnerships for? Is it an aspect of your personality, your background?

Rachel Jones: Yeah, I certainly got a lot of experience doing project management at a large scale in my engineering role. I was doing a lot of managing remotely. So I had vendors that were in Germany, and Florida, and Seattle... All over the country, all over the world, that I'm orchestrating, getting parts to a specific location at specific time... And a lot of that involves knowing how to talk to people, because it's all a people business. So you have to be able to know how to talk to vendors, you have to be able to know how to talk to investors, and you have to be able to know how to talk to property managers.

Everybody involved is a person, including tenants. So coming from a background of actually managing properties myself and self-managing for a couple of years, that really helped me understand if I treat tenants as people, and if I show them I care, then they care more about the property. That doesn't mean you give them leniency on a whole lot of stuff. But that does mean you're respectful of them, and say "I understand your situation, but you have to understand my situation. And here are your options to move forward." Just treating them like people.

The same is true of contractors and property managers. The more you can see from somebody else's perspective, how they're interpreting what instructions you're giving them, what decisions they have to make because of what you want done, you can really help or hurt a relationship.

A good example of that is when you're doing a major value-add renovation, like we did on the 28th unit - somebody has to pick every single finish that goes into that unit. Now, you can hire somebody to do that for you, you can have your GC pick it... Somebody has to pick it though. You have to pay somebody; you can do it yourself, that's fine, but somebody has to pick every single thing, from the outlet switch covers, to the doorknobs, to the to the doors, to light fixtures, everything. And somebody has to take the time to go and pick out exactly the thing that they're going to buy. If you leave that up to the contractor, they're going to pick their defaults. And maybe you'll be happy with it, maybe you won't, but that comes down to you. It's ultimately your responsibility. And I really think that piece of it is where I end up shining and coming out on top in a lot of cases. I take full responsibility for making those decisions.

So if I'm not making the decision, and I push that on somebody else, that was still my decision to give that to somebody else. I take ownership of pretty much everything that we do around these properties, and that's where being an asset manager really comes into play in that particular role.

Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. It's not often that I interview an engineer who emphasizes the importance of people skills and communication. But that makes a lot of sense, especially with your background, and your responsibilities within these deals. Give us a couple of examples, taking that experience from your background, managing global supply chains, making sure parts get where they need to be, when they need to be there... Give us a couple of examples of translating that into the successful execution of your business plans.

Rachel Jones: Sure. So a good one is probably the mobile home park, actually. So when we took that one over, there were four empty vacant lots.

Slocomb Reed: Sorry for interrupting, but do you all own the homes as well, or just the lots?

Rachel Jones: We do not own the homes.

Slocomb Reed: Okay.

Rachel Jones: It was small enough, we just wanted to own the land, not the homes themselves. So we had four empty lots that we needed to get homes for, but we didn't want to buy brand new homes and go that route, so instead I went and sourced four homes for free from another mobile home park that was closing down about 10 minutes down the road. Because it was closing down within the same city limits, I was able to move those homes, even though they were older. Because in mobile homes you can't move across county lines in a lot of cases, because they don't want you to bring in older homes into a new county. In this case, I was able to convince the city, because it's still within the city limits, it's still within the 10 minutes, we're not changing the look of the city as a whole... I'm just moving these to a different location. And this comes with -- people skills is you're nice about it, and you work from their angle, like "We'll make sure they're nice, and we'll clean them up, and we'll paint them, and make sure they look good for the neighborhood." I also get to save these homes, and have a better, more affordable place for people to live.

So I had to work with the movers, I had to work with the plumbers, I had to work with electricians, I had to work with landscaping people, get the tree work done in time, and the land work done in time, in order to get those homes moved at the right time, before that other part closed; I'm on a time limit, because if that other park cleared, they were going to develop it, so they were going to totally trash these homes unless I can get everything else ready on time.

So keeping all those moving parts going in a two month period - that really highlights on my skills. I found something I sourced at a low cost, I figured out all the different vendors that I had to bring together, I organized them, made sure they knew when they needed to be there, what they needed to do, how much it was going to cost to manage them... And then I also made sure that the people that I was getting the homes from knew what I was doing, kept them on board, so that they weren't surprised when people showed up with moving trucks, or we needed an extra week for one of the homes. "Oh sure, we'll just start developing another part of the parcel instead of the part you were on."

So that's why it's really important to keep all those balls in the air, and be able to track all of that and not lose sight of even some of these little details that in a lot of cases can make or break a deal.

Slocomb Reed: Rachel, talking about doing this for four homes, at a relatively small park, going through the amount of effort that you did to pull this off, how much did that affect the bottom line for the property?

Rachel Jones: It's been huge, right? So we had four vacant lots that had no income coming in on them whatsoever.

Slocomb Reed: Yeah, so my point of comparison - I should have explained better - you can just go buy a four new homes, right? That's more expensive. Or you can go through the work that you went through to get these quote-unquote free homes from another park, but they still have to be transported. I know a lot of people talk at least anecdotally about how expensive it is to transport those homes. And now you're also talking about landscapers plumbers and other tradespeople that have to be hired in order to pull this off. So is it simply cost savings? Is it an impact to the NOI having done it this way, instead of just buying new homes?

Rachel Jones: It is. New homes versus old homes, in terms of lot rent, doesn't matter. If I was renting the home back out, it would certainly matter. I could get a higher rent for somebody in a brand new home than a used home. But because I'm really focused for this one on just the lot rent, I don't really care what kind of home is on that property, as long as there's somebody there paying me the lot rent. So in this case, it helped a lot. So I did get an average of 20% return on each one of the homes as we sold them. Because we moved them, I got them set up, and then I resold them. And two of those were actually on notes, so we were getting a 16% interest rate on the note on top of selling the home for a 20% premium in the first place. But ultimately, the biggest benefit to us is because we're only renting out the land in this case, we're getting that extra lot rent coming in on those four homes; we didn't have to go through getting the new brand new homes. It was just getting old ones on there and it was totally fine.

Slocomb Reed: It makes a lot more sense when you put it that way. Thank you. Because the goal is the lot rent, right? And as long as the homes that you're putting on are not detracting from the property as a whole... Part of the idea behind mobile home parks is affordable homeownership, affordable living for the lot tenants. So that makes a lot of sense that you're creating an opportunity for someone to acquire a mobile home much more affordably than they would a new one as well, and you're getting the same lot rent, because the lot itself isn't changing. That makes a lot of sense.

Break: [00:15:43.14]

Slocomb Reed: Do you have another example of how your expertise has led to a successful execution of your business plans on one of the other properties?

Rachel Jones: The other good example would be the 28th unit. So that one is in Mount Holly; like I said, it's about 15 minutes from my house. And that one has been a heavy value-add. So my partners and I, we started out with an average rent of about $650 per unit for a two-bedroom/one and a half bath townhome style apartment. Since then - just to jump to the end, and then I'll fill in the middle - we're currently getting $1,340 gross rent per unit, for the same units. So we've done quite a bit of value-add, both physically and in marketing and in culture on the property. And we did it in less than a year, was the other thing.

So the timing on this, to stay under budget and stay on time for something that large, where we're renovating every single unit significantly... All but seven tenants have moved out, so we've totally turned over the existing tenant base from when we took over. And to have all of that happened within a year, and everybody still working really well together... It takes a lot of people skills, a lot of organizational skills, making sure we can get materials down, working with a great contractor... We've done a lot of really good things on that property, and it's honestly hard to piece out all the little details that are involved with making that such a success. But without being able to keep your eye on all the different moving pieces that change every single week, it's going to be really difficult to execute on a plan like that, especially in the current environment, staying under budget, staying on track for a time... You just can't get people to come work for you unless you're going to actually pay them on time, work with them well, and treat them with respect.

Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. I'm living that reality right now, too. And I do not have your background in project management like this. I want to talk about that again in a moment. But let's transition the conversation to your experience needing to fire a property manager, and change to a new management company after just three months. A few questions here. The first one is how long ago did this happen, and how long have you had the new management in place? And then how is it that after only three months, you were able to not only figure out that the previous manager needed to go, but that you could also identify who should take over in their place?

Rachel Jones: Yeah, that's a good place to go. It's the same property, actually, I was just talking about for the CapEx. So we bought it last year, and we fired the property manager in August, is when the new one took over... And to figure out that they were not the right fit, honestly - it started off very quickly. So before we closed, I spent a lot of time talking to the property manager, asking what I thought were all the right questions... But what I didn't do was ask and talk about the people behind him, what processes they had in place, outside of just the head property manager, who was giving me all the right answers to my questions, but I couldn't actually see how they were going to operate until after we closed. And that was a big lessons learned for me, and it's really translated well into the properties that I'm working on. I closed one last week, and work on another one, set up to close next month. Hopefully, I'm interviewing the property managers for those. There's a lot of lessons I learned from that.

But anyway, you asked about how did I know early on... For me, the first thing was the responsiveness wasn't there. So one of the reasons we picked the property manager we did was they lived in the same city that this property is in, so they said, "Hey, even if it's not our day to drive by it, we'll be driving by this property all the time, we'll be able to stop by if we see something's going wrong; we'll really be able to jump in on that pretty quickly." And within the first I'd say two weeks it was really obvious that's not what was happening, because I was personally going to stop by the property and sending them text messages and saying, "Hey, this is wrong. Hey, this isn't quite right. Hey, the trash is really backed up. When's the landscaper coming out here? Hey, did you post these notices that you're supposed to post on the doors? Do you have the tenant sign on the leases?" Asking all these operational questions that from operating my own properties I knew was what should be happening within the first week or two, but were not happening with who I thought was a professional property manager... Which was a little frustrating. You hired somebody who's supposed to be the expert, and they're not doing the basic things that you're like, "Oh yeah, no, I've been doing this, and this is the professional way to do it", but you find out it's actually not the standard, which I found very odd personally, and I still find a little bit strange... But sub-institutional is a little bit weird like that; if you get to the bigger property management companies, then a lot of them have these very standard processes in place, they know exactly what to do. But there's this weird middle ground where property managers can vary all over the place.

So after that, we then started asking for questions on the financials... Even the books weren't quite correct, so we were correcting books along with him, which is supposed to be part of the property manager's role, to have operational books that were clean. And the transition from the old owner was not easy. Don't get me wrong, because we were dealing with lower-income tenants. The seller had owned it since the 1870s, so his personal bookkeeping was not the same standard that I come to expect from the business either. But at the same time, we had the numbers and we knew where we were supposed to be.

So there was a lot of work that my partner and I were doing, that should have been on the property managers shoulders. And it was like, "Okay, well, we'll keep working with them. It should clear up." We were talking to him, and he was actively trying to fix things... But after about two months or so it became clear that things just weren't getting better fast enough, and there was just too much at risk for the business plan for it not to operate smoothly. So we started talking about who else we might bring in. And to your point, how do you know that you're not going to just get the same thing when you hire somebody else. But I'd been testing out a property management company on my six unit for about two years. I knew how they operated. I was like, "Hey, why don't we go ahead and bring them on to this one?" even though I think they'd done at that point to more midsized, 30-unit size properties that they had under management; they mostly did single family... It was like "Hey, at least I know their books are clean. I know how they operate, and they're responsive, and they'll treat the tenants with respect", and that's a huge step up from where we were initially. We went ahead and said, "Okay, we'll bring them on to start with", and we've been with them with them since.

Slocomb Reed: Rachel, I feel like you were just describing two properties in my own portfolio. And everything that you're saying is a big part of the reason that I self-manage. We can draw a lot of similarities between the Charlotte MSA and Cincinnati, Ohio, where I am, with the rent rates that you were talking about, and several other things. And I know as an owner-operator, I understand how important it is to have very active, involved, while still remote management for a 28-unit... Because it's just not big enough to put someone on site, to your point about being sub-institutional. You or your third party manager is not going to have constant boots on the ground there, because there's just not revenue to justify it from 28 units in an MSA like yours or mine. And the highly reputable, high-quality management firms that most of the larger syndicators are working with even in our metros just won't take a 28-unit, because it's too small; they can't put someone full-time on site.

Rachel Jones: 100%. Yeah, we've got the same problem here.

Slocomb Reed: So this is a little bit of insider baseball, or it may end up that way... We should still be adding value to the listeners, though. You've had two property managers at this location. The first one did not work out, and the second one is working out so far; they've had almost nine months at the time that we're recording to operate there. How were your property management agreements structured? What were you paying?

Rachel Jones: Alright, I can get into some decent numbers. So I was actually just having a conversation with another investor yesterday, actually... Because he's coming from Israel; we're talking about a property where we had both underwritten, completely separately, and we'd realized that when we were talking at [unintelligible 00:26:02.10] last week. So we said "Hey, let's chat a little bit more and see how our underwriting is different." So one of the things we've found was the assumptions around how much property managers cost.

Slocomb Reed: Yeah, but also how that compensation is structured... Because when you're talking about those more institutional grade assets, you're talking about the property paying the salary of employees and a property manager being paid a percentage of gross collections on top of that. I imagine that's not what your situation looks like, so tell me, how is it that you are paying? How is it structured?

Rachel Jones: Right now it's structured just based on a percentage of gross income. So they also get to keep the late fees and the application fees. So that's another piece of their income, but it's a straight 7% of gross.

Slocomb Reed: 7%. Is that how it was structured with your previous manager?

Rachel Jones: Yes. To me, if you're going with less than 7% in this particular area, either you have another income stream that you're leaning on from a property management, or your property management business is probably not all that profitable, and it's not a strong enough business that I'm going to want to partner with long-term... Just because property managers have to make money, too; they have to be able to pay their people and pay good people. So if you're trying to find the cheapest possible property manager, then you can give it a try, but it's probably not going to be a solid long-term solution. You're gonna end up spending a lot more of your own time managing them, than if you paid a little bit more and hired somebody who really knew what they were doing. But to your point, for a 28-unit, you're totally off site - you need... We'll call it like a quarter of a property manager if you're going to hire for salary. And even the people who are doing 50-60 units, who do allow you to hire half a property manager in addition to their normal fee, they don't go that low; they won't go to like a quarter... Unless you have other properties in the area. That's another lever that I'm hoping to have here in the next few years, is to get enough properties, even if I continue in the smaller sizes, that I can hire a property manager to manage just my properties.

So it's like, even if I have four 30-units, I can get one property manager manage my four properties, and spread that cost out among them, so then it actually does make sense, and I still have a focused person. But then you're starting to talk vertical integration, and all this other stuff... And yeah, that's future dreams and planning right now.

Slocomb Reed: Absolutely. [unintelligible 00:28:21.04] of those dreams and planning, too. Unfortunately, we're running a bit long. I do have one more question before we transition the conversation again. For those of us who are not naturally inclined to project management, we don't have your personality background skill set, but we also as active investors find ourselves needing to do a lot of that work, making sure that the parts and the people get where they need to be, when they need to be there... What are your top tips for engaging in that kind of work?

Rachel Jones: One of my top ones is know how you're going to communicate, what, when and to who, and have everyone on the same page about that from the beginning. So for example, that 29 unit I just closed on last week, in the weeks leading up to that I got the team onto Asana, which is a tool I really like to use for project management. It's not free, but it's a very good central location. And it's kind of like having a remote board where everybody can post up what they're doing, when it's going to come, you can set up flowcharts, you can set up things... Once landscaping gets done, we'll put up the dog park; like, those kinds of things, you can set up in your reminders. So "Hey, we need to make sure somebody goes out and cleans the gutters every six months", that sort of thing you can set up in Asana. And those are kind of things that if you're on a larger site, and you've got a property manager that's focused on your property, they will do for you. But on the smaller properties - again, somebody has to say "Hey, I need a work order to go clean the gutters." And that's not going to be a tenant, and oftentimes that's not gonna be the property manager either, because they're not paying attention to looking up there as the owner [unintelligible 00:29:59.07] That's part of your job.

Slocomb Reed: Yeah, if your tenant is telling you to clean out the gutters, that's when you know it's too late. The water's already in at that point.

Rachel Jones: Exactly. So having this communication method with everyone is the best advice that I can offer.

Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Rachel Jones: Absolutely.

Slocomb Reed: What is the Best Ever book you've recently read?

Rachel Jones: "The score takes care of itself" by Bill Walsh. It's not a real estate book, but it is a leadership book, and I think a lot of real estate and sponsorship or just being an owner is in being able to lead a team.

Slocomb Reed: What is your Best Ever way to give back?

Rachel Jones: So I have two. One is we always find a local charity to partner with, and whenever we buy a property in an area, we find a new one every single time, and it's always really rewarding. And the second one is I love being the den leader for my son's Scout Troop, and I'm hoping my daughter joins next year, too... So it'll be fun.

Slocomb Reed: Thus far, Rachel, on the deals that you have done, what is the biggest mistake you've made, and the Best Ever lesson that resulted from it?

Rachel Jones: The biggest mistake that I made... Hold on.

Slocomb Reed: I know, it's a big one.

Rachel Jones: I think the biggest mistake early on that I made was assuming I couldn't do it. And that sounds maybe a little bit weird, but coming from an engineering background, I had a good salary, I had no interest... I didn't really think of real estate as a second career, and I didn't really believe I could go big. So updating how I thought about real estate, how I thought about my abilities, and how I thought about just getting in the right mental state in order to get bigger... If you can think about it in such a way as you can actually do it, then you can figure out the steps to actually do it. And that I think was my earliest and biggest mistake, because it took me a lot longer to figure that out than I wish I had.

Slocomb Reed: That is very helpful. Specific to the execution of your business plans thus far, what's the biggest mistake you've made and the Best Ever lesson?

Rachel Jones: The biggest one was not doing the property management due diligence that we talked about earlier; it's only going one level deep when I'm looking at the property manager, and not looking into the background of who they've got on staff, talking to people actually doing the work, and asking to look at what their standard operating processes are before actually closing the deal, so that I can understand if they're actually going to operate the way that they say they're going to operate.

Slocomb Reed: And what is your Best Ever advice?

Rachel Jones: Accelerate positive change. Anywhere you go, anything you do, anybody you talk to, if you see a positive change happening, help accelerate it. Find a way to help it. It can be buying a property in a neighborhood that's turning over, it can be helping a general contractor that's doing a great job, just get to that next level, it can be helping another investor get to that next level on themselves. So the more you can help be the accelerator for other people's positive change, the more it will help you and your own business as well.

Slocomb Reed: Last question, where can people get in touch with you?

Rachel Jones: LinkedIn is probably the easiest one. But I also have a website, CloverCapitalGroup.net, and you're welcome to email me at Rachel [at] CloverCapitalGroup.net anytime, and happy to talk.

Slocomb Reed: Those links are in the show notes. Rachel, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this episode, please do subscribe to our show, leave us a five star review and share this episode with a friend you know we can add value to through our conversation today. Thank you, and have a Best Ever day.

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