Justin Moy is a principal at Perpetual Wealth Capital and host of the podcast, Building Passive Income & Wealth (Through Real Estate). In this episode, he shares how his lifelong interest in real estate led him to flipping, wholesaling, becoming a realtor, and ultimately finding multifamily syndication and becoming a GP of 300+ units.
“If something is really worth having, you’ve got to know that other people have done it before you, other people were successful, and you can be, too.”
Justin Moy | Real Estate Background
- Principal at Perpetual Wealth Capital and host of the podcast, Building Passive Income & Wealth (Through Real Estate).
- Lead GP and LP of 304 units
- Based in: Kansas City, MO
- Say hi to him at:
- Greatest lesson: Refining your communication and sales skills, regardless of your position, is important.
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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Justin Moy. Justin is joining us from Kansas City, Missouri. He is a multifamily syndicator and has 304 units as both a GP and an LP. Justin, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Justin Moy: Ash, thanks so much for having me. I'm doing fantastic.
Ash Patel: Awesome, man. It's our pleasure to have you. Justin, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Justin Moy: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in real estate for most of my professional life. I was in real estate sales, then helped investors buy and sell properties, then acquisitions, I've done flips, wholesale properties, and eventually landed into syndication, which is what I focus on now. There's quite a few reasons why I've gone to that, but real estate has always been something that's really ignited me. I think, maybe like many listeners, the conventional college and nine-to-five route wasn't quite for me. I had to kind of figure that out quick, by almost failing pretty much every class I ever took leading up into college... So I was looking for ways to make a lot of money without having that formal education. So real estate and insurance were kind of the two fields that I knew a lot of my friends' parents who didn't have degrees went into, and I decided to jump in both feet on in real estate. That was maybe eight or nine years ago at this point... And I haven't looked back ever since. Best decision I've ever made.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Listen, I had a horrible GPA in college because I didn't go to class a whole lot, so I get that struggle. Justin, you said you helped investors find deals... What does that mean?
Justin Moy: Yeah, so my very first step into real estate was as a realtor myself. I think maybe a lot of people have started there and maybe gotten their license... I was 19 years old at the time, so I had just graduated high school... And this was in the East Bay of California. So the East Bay of California, right across the bridge, at the time was like the fourth most competitive market in the country. I had no idea what I was getting myself into; I thought I would just tell my friends I had my license, I would sell some deals... And it was the old mentality, "Well, if I just sell one or two a year, I'm pretty good", because homes in the Bay Area - you know, $2, $3, $4 million plus.
So I started doing that, I was grinding on cold calls... I didn't really have a lot of direction, and I eventually did what I should have done in the first place and got a mentor. And my mentor said, "Well, why don't you start off by looking at some direction? Instead of cold calling everybody and their mother, do you like a certain neighborhood? Do you like a style of house? Do you like working with investors? Do you like working with tenants?" And I said "I think I like working with investors. I think I want to be a real estate investor one of these days, because I could see the burnout path of being a transactional person in the real estate field..." So that really stuck out to me, so I said, "Yeah, I really want to help investors find properties to invest in. He said "Okay, great. I do a ton of that. Let me show you exactly how to do it. This is what they look for, this how to find tenant-unoccupied properties, or non-owner-occupied properties... And really walked me through that. And that's really what ended up being my most successful kind of niche in real estate, was helping broker single family investment homes. And that really triggered me to look at incomes, and what other people who were in the owner sides of things, what lives they were living, and I said "I've gotta get out of the transactional space. I've got to be an investor myself."
Ash Patel: Yeah, you saw the money they're making. "How do I get that...?" Okay, so listen, a lot of people do that, right? A lot of people aspire to get to where someone else is. What steps did you take to get there? And how long did that take?
Justin Moy: I ended up being a real estate broker for about three years. Now, granted, I loved every day of those three years; it was both the hardest and the most successful thing I've really done. It was a huge learning curve, and it taught me an enormous amount; not just about business, but about sales, about mentorships, about not going at things alone... And it was definitely the most important milestone I'd hit.
One of the biggest takeaways I had from that was how quickly I got to where I wanted to go when I had a mentor. It was an informal mentor, but since then, I've done informal mentorships, formal mentorships where you pay somebody, coaching programs, masterminds, and it's really just taken me to the very, very next level... Because at the time I was a 19-year-old kid, I thought I could and should do everything myself... I thought, "Hey, everything's for free on YouTube anyways. Why would I do this? Why would I pay somebody to do this?" So I think that was the biggest part, was "Hey, if you have people in your corner, you're gonna get there significantly faster, no matter how hard you work, just by compounding people's knowledge." So that was a huge, huge, huge first step for me to realize what I needed.
Ash Patel: You mentioned it was a very competitive market... How did you penetrate that competition, when you were a beginning realtor?
Justin Moy: It was really, really tough because we were in a market that was very generational. A lot of people, they were inheriting their father or mother's business, who inherited their father's or mother's business, who essentially sold the land to develop that stuff to the initial owners. And so a big part of that to me was, I knew that I had to really outwork the hell out of everybody. And cold calling was my method of doing that. I would cold call, and [unintelligible 00:05:50.23] listening, and they remember those back in the days, or maybe they're in those days now, where they're just banging the phones like crazy... Somebody had told me in my office, "Hey, if you ask 20 people a day if they want to sell their homes, you'll probably make pretty good money here." And so I said, "Okay, so if I ask 50 people a day, I can't fail, right?" And they said, "Well, I guess... Sure." So that was my goal; every day, I needed to ask 50 people if they're selling their home. And what was the quickest way I could do that? I stood outside of grocery stores, handing out business cards, I cold called people, I pulled lists, I had targeted lists... It didn't matter to me. But every single day, I knew I had to ask at the very least 50 people if they were going to sell their home. And that's the only way that I could have ever managed. And I just had to continue to do it. I'm a really, really, really big fan of compounding efforts; the things you do every single day do add up to this enormous results at the end of the week, month, day, year, or your career... And that finally got it for me.
Ash Patel: Justin, do you think that would work today?
Justin Moy: I definitely think it would work today. A lot of people say cold calling is dead. I could see it being sort of on its way out. I don't think it's quite here yet. I'm really also into marketing, and you see kind of some market cycles and sales tactics cycles... So I think it still works; at the end of the day, you can't really overcome human interaction. And that's what a cold call is; that's what a door knock is. That's what standing outside of a grocery store is. It's a human interaction; you're gonna see that those numbers increase. So when I was in the business about 10 years ago, maybe that was 50 a day; maybe now if you cold call, it's 70 a day. Maybe it's 75 or 80 a day, because the numbers dilute. But at the end of the day, you need to find out, whatever you're doing in your business, "What do I need to do every single day to get me where I want to go?" In direct sales, it's usually some type of prospect outreach, in acquisitions it's usually some kind of underwriting properties... Whatever that number is, what do I need to do every single day that's going to have the most impact on my business? And that really is fundamentally what that comes down to.
Ash Patel: Let's go back to when you were working with a mentor, when you had coaches... What was the next action step you took to level up?
Justin Moy: To me, it was a big thing of whatever my coaches told me, whatever my mentor said, I would pick, whether there was a person, or a company, or a [unintelligible 00:08:05.18] whatever it was... Because there's so much information out there, and there's so many ways to do the same thing, and there's so many ways to be successful at the same thing that you could have to extraordinarily successful mentors or coaches tell you two totally different things, and they probably both work. But the biggest thing with a lot of people is they hop from one to another. They say "Oh, this person said cold calling is the way to do, and I'll do that." Then after a week they go, "Oh, this isn't working for me. This person said I've gotta knock on doors" and they go over there. Then "Oh, that didn't work for me. This person says that cold calling is dead. I've gotta go do this."
So what you really need to do is figure out "What is the firm direction that I want to go?" Because another thing that really helped me realize and level up my career was realizing that I can't do it all. There's a lot of great ideas out there. There's a lot of great methods of doing things. I have to pick the one, to two, to three, whatever you have the capacity for, and really hone in on those, commit to those, and do them well. So don't get too blindsided by a lot of advice, because there's a ton out there, and there's a ton of great advice out there. Pick what you think will work for you, and really go all in on that. Don't spread yourself too thin.
Ash Patel: Yeah. So how did you go from being a realtor to being a syndicator? What was that journey?
Justin Moy: So I was in a real estate sales. Anybody who is in that life knows that it's quite a grind. It's not as glamorous as the shows make it seem. It's very, very transactional. And there are two things that really bugged me about the business. First that it was a transactional; I've got to work, and I realized I could never step away, just me personally. Even when I was taking a day off, I was never really off. I could never really enjoy time with my friends and my family... That's just kind of the personality that I have. And second was it was very locationally-specific. If I continued down that path, as a recent high school graduate - I was 19 years old when I got my real estate license. If I was going to build this big book of business as a real estate agent - well, that typically means you have to stay in that area. And if you go somewhere else, you've got to continue all over and you've got to build an entirely new book of business. So I decided "Shoot, those are two really big deal killers for me. I don't want to be transactional, and I don't want to be tied to a specific area." And through working with a lot of my investors, I can't say that -- actually, the majority were not even in California. The majority handled everything remote. They were in Taiwan, or Japan or their vacationing, or they say, "Yeah, I just live in this other country or this other state now", and I realized "That's life that I want. So how do I do that?" And then the thought process, especially for a lot of people, is "Well, I'll just continue buying one or two single-family homes every single year." Again, a great strategy. There's nothing wrong with it. But when I really dove into the numbers, that cash return and what we were seeing for how long it would take for you to be able to sustain a pretty great life purely off of just that cash flow - it was really staggering. I needed a lot, a lot of properties, and a lot of cash.
So I continued down that rabbit hole to see, "Hey, how can I do these things faster? How can I achieve what I want to achieve faster?" And I looked into multifamily syndications, and it really checked all the boxes for me. There's active and there's passive roles in them, and there's small deals, there's big deals, there's multifamily, there's industrial... And the whole world opens up when you start to see real estate not just as "I've got to buy the house next door and put a tenant in there." So I went down that rabbit hole in syndications, and I haven't looked back since; it's been an awesome journey.
Ash Patel: Justin, what was your first deal?
Justin Moy: My first deal was a 41 unit property, which we were actually -- I don't know, depending on when this airs, we might have sold at this point... And that was a few years ago. For units, we ended up making it 41, out in St. Louis County. And it was a total gut rehab, vacant building, it was condemned, it was like overrun by gangs before... It just had this enormous rap sheet of history on it, so we got a for an incredible price... And with very, very conservative projections, we should be exiting that property in the next couple of months with an extraordinary return, probably two and a half to 3x.
Ash Patel: Did you say you went from 4 to 41 units?
Justin Moy: 40 to 41. I ended up adding an additional unit.
Ash Patel: I was gonna say, man, what a value-add...
Justin Moy: Yeah... I Grant-Cardoned that thing, 10x-ed it. [laughs]
Ash Patel: What was the purchase price on that?
Justin Moy: Yeah, we purchased it for four million bucks.
Ash Patel: Okay. Wow. 40 units for a million dollars.
Justin Moy: Yeah.
Ash Patel: And what's the sale price is going to be?
Justin Moy: It'll be closer to - in a very conservative sense, close to about 3.1, 3.2.
Ash Patel: And how much do you have in it?
Justin Moy: Me personally, I didn't put any money in.
Ash Patel: No, what's the total CapEx, total budget?
Justin Moy: Total CapEx, it'll be about 1.5.
Ash Patel: So at the end of the day, you'll walk away with about 600k total. So why did you do such a heavy lift for your first deal?
Justin Moy: It was about partners. I found this deal, and I initially had walked away from it, because just like you said, I said "This is too much. This is too heavy of a lift. I don't know how to do these things. I don't know anything about construction (at the time). I don't know nothing about electrical panels", I didn't know any of that. So I went to a conference actually in Texas, and I was talking to a few people, and I remember I met this guy who actually built multifamily properties and built custom homes. And I call him and I said, "Hey, I've got a question for you, man. Would you do a deal with me out in St. Louis?" And the guy's out in Boise, and he says, "Yeah, why not? What do you need?" I said "Well, it needs everything. It really needs a gut to the studs. We've got to do everything on this property." I showed him the picture, I showed him the aerials, we did video tours, we walked the place... And he said, "Yeah, this is no problem. I can take care of this." So we said "Perfect", and we ended up inking that deal with a PSA I think the next day; but without that partner, it would have been way too much.
Ash Patel: And what was the split on that partnership?
Justin Moy: We would do 50/50.
Ash Patel: And you took on investors for that deal?
Justin Moy: We didn't end up needing to take on investors. Well, not as a syndication aspect. We JV-ed it, we had two investors on the deal, and then we did the work on it. So it was a small JV for my first deal, but I couldn't have asked for a better one. You always say you learn the most on that first one that happens, and it was an incredible ride, for sure. Nothing in the courses, or the books, or the other podcasts could really replace the experience of actually doing that first deal.
Break: [00:14:20.11] to [00:15:26.00]
Ash Patel: Justin, you weren't cash-flowing on that deal on day one, were you?
Justin Moy: No, absolutely not. We ended up losing money on the loan for about five or six months before we broke even.
Ash Patel: Did you prep your investors for that? Your two JV investors.
Justin Moy: Yeah, absolutely. And I know a lot of the investors that we took on were very used to putting into deals that didn't cash-flow for maybe one or two years, or they invested in a lot flips, where they weren't really looking for that cashflow; they wanted to put their money somewhere, have the tax benefits and then get that bigger pop in a year or two years or three years. So yeah, you definitely have to let your investors know "This is the game plan, where we're not buying a cash-flowing property. But the reason why we think it's a great deal is because we are projecting a cashflow", whatever it was; for us, it was 12 months, and we ended up hitting it in six. But they knew going in that cashflow wasn't a big aspect of it. They were looking at IRRs, and they were looking at equity multiples.
Ash Patel: Yeah. I think that's so important, that you align the expectations of your investors... Because there's a lot of investors out there that rely on that monthly or quarterly pref payment, and there's others where it's just an accounting headache. They don't want it. They just want the backend returns. What will the total return to investors be on this deal?
Justin Moy: Between 2x and 2.5x their initial investment.
Ash Patel: Would you do another heavy lift of this caliber again?
Justin Moy: Absolutely. I think we would change our criteria a little bit. I think we would have a little bit more leeway for how much more do we want to put into this property. Cost of labor over the course of us doing the project had fluctuated up and down, so I think having a little bit more of that prep for me, knowing it was going to go up, it was going to come back down... Lumber changed prices four times within the last couple of months... So just prepping to know, "Hey, this is going to be a journey over the next 12 months, it's going to be a little bit more volatile. It's hard to plan for a lot of these things, but we should add a little bit more cushion here." And overall, the returns are fantastic. And I like to do a lot of that work. I like to add value. We took a literally condemned building, and now we're able to house 41 tenants in it, which is helping a huge housing crisis we have. So I love to add value, I love to feel like we had a big impact on that community and those tenants.
Ash Patel: Justin, how do you find deals today?
Justin Moy: We work all through brokers. We're actually adding on an arm of the company that will do some direct to seller for smaller multifamily. But 41 right now is the smallest we have in that portfolio. A lot of those trade through brokers, and I'm a really big -- just like I talked about before, really staying focused on one or two really hardcore strategies and not spreading yourself too thin. So again, there's a lot of ways to find properties. You can send mailers, you can cold call, you can text blast... I get mailers on all of our properties; they all work. But what is the one or two methods that you can do every single time and get the best results? For us, we network a ton with brokers, and now we're just starting to add on a direct to seller method, which will be cold calling; going back to my roots.
Ash Patel: Yeah, and that was gonna be my question - why are you not cold calling? What worked so well in the past and what you advocated.
Justin Moy: Yeah. It's tough. When you get into multifamily and you get bigger properties, the strategies are a little bit different. [unintelligible 00:18:33.04] a little bit different, you're dealing typically with a little bit more of a sophisticated seller, or a sophisticated owner once you get to a certain unit count; then you get a lot more gatekeepers, you get a lot more LLCs, into different LCS... So it's a little bit harder. And also [unintelligible 00:18:47.00] on time. Again, we have to prioritize where we spend our time. Our time has been so far better spent with people whose job is to do these things all the time, and they're the cold callers, and we're kind of networking a lot with them and building those great relationships... That has been more lucrative on our time investment thus far.
Ash Patel: How do you get a competitive advantage with brokers? Because there's a lot of other Justins out there looking for deals.
Justin Moy: Yeah, that's huge. And I worked in a commercial brokerage before as well. What I can say - two ways to stand out to these bigger-time multifamily brokers, or any other commercial field that you're in... First one is be consistent. You've got to be there. I forgot what the statistic was; it was like a vast majority of people who reach out to these brokers for the first time never reach back out to them again. It's something crazy. So if you reach out even just two times - you've got to do way more, but even if you just do two, you're already in the top percentile of people who's reached out to them. You have to be there all the time. You have to ask great questions.
The difference between residential and multifamily - the education is night and day. You've got to know what you're talking about. You've got to ask great questions. One question that I love to ask to stand out among brokers, when I'm connecting with them for the first time, is "What do you and your team need from me and my team to feel really confident in our ability as buyers?" And I have not ever gotten a negative response there. Because they'll usually pause for a second, and they'll say, 'That's a great question. Well, I guess we could talk about your experience." And now you know, "Okay, great. Now they want to know about our experience. Okay, great. So our experience and what else?" "Well, what's your portfolio look like now?" "Great. Here's our experience, our portfolio..." And then the questions will start to flow. And then that opens you up to let them know, "I'm really serious about this. I'm serious, I'm letting you know that we're great, qualified buyers. What do you need for me, so we can get past this and get to work out some deals?" So just think of ways to stick around all the time. Always follow up with them, and ask them great questions.
Ash Patel: I like that, "What do you need from me to build confidence in me as a buyer?" That's a great idea.
Justin Moy: [00:20:54.05] people has helped quite a bit. And that's a big sales tactic, is being really direct. "What do you need for me?" I know you get calls all the time from people who are new to the market; what do you need from me to increase your confidence in us? And then let's get some deals working."
Ash Patel: You tell them that you're new to the market?
Justin Moy: Well, they're gonna know. All the big brokers in multifamily know the buyers there. And when they do ask you, "What's your REO, your SREO, your [unintelligible 00:21:17.28] they're typically going to know the buildings that they worked with in that market, and they'll know you're a new buyer here. Now, it doesn't mean you're new to multifamily, but you [unintelligible 00:21:27.13] most of our portfolios in this area, that new in Kansas City, that are new in Phoenix. But what do you need from me to build that confidence?
So most of the time, not hiding those facts... A great broker that does a lot of business in the area is gonna know they haven't seen your name before, or your group before. And then they might even ask you, "Hey, what do you own here?" And you're not gonna lie. Say "Hey, we're new to the market, actually. Most of our portfolio's in here. But again, what do you need from me to make you confident in our abilities? This is what we've closed, this is what we do. This is our buying potential." And then the questions are going to start flowing.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Good for you. I like that. Justin, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Justin Moy: My best advice ever is you have to be consistent in everything you do. I'm a huge advocate of compounding action. It's gonna feel like you're not getting anywhere, until one day, you're just gonna get there. No matter what you're doing, compounding action; you've got to do the same things every single day, that are gonna get you where you want to go.
Ash Patel: And what's a really hard lesson that you learned, that came with something that you wish you didn't have to go through? Think back something that you got your teeth kicked in, whether it was experience with a partner, investor, a deal, a broker. What was just the toughest thing you went through?
Justin Moy: I'll tell you this... It's a story that I really like.
Ash Patel: It doesn't sound tough, man... If you like it, it doesn't sound tough.
Justin Moy: Well, it shows the compounding action, and it was a tough, tough, tough, tough, tough journey. So when I was in real estate, I was in sales for about three years. I didn't sell my first property until I was about a year in. It was a long time to go with no money. It was a long time to look at your friends and family and say "I haven't made any money yet." They said, "Well, how's the real estate business going?" "Oh, it's going great." "Like, what have you sold?" "I'm working on it." So I told you I was cold calling every single day. Eight, nine, ten hours a day. I was maniac. And the very last day, I remember, I was coming up on a year, I haven't sold a thing. I'm sitting in my office, I'm one of the last people there... And I'm not an emotional guy, but I kind of started to break down. I said "Everybody's gonna laugh at me. They're gonna make fun of me. I told everybody I'm doing this thing, and now I'm failing." And I remember I had my face in my hands. I really had never done this before - I was the last one in the office., and I picked my head up, and I started unplugging my laptop, and I said, "This is it. I'm just gonna go home and I'm never going to come back. I've got to figure something else out." And I used to call on a FSBO, For Sale By Owners. I went on Craigslist, and I hit Refresh on Craigslist, and I saw one more pop up. And I stared at my computer. And there's no way I can prove this --
Ash Patel: It sounds like a movie.
Justin Moy: Yeah, it sounds like a movie. One more popped up. And I stared at my computer, and I just said, "Why even bother? Should I even do it?" I said "Forget it. I'm doing one more time, one last cold call, and then I'm done. Once they tell me no, I'm going to pack it up and leave." I called, a lady picks up, and I went through my script. I think I half-assed it, too. It was a terrible pitch, because I was totally worn out, and I was waiting to get the no, so I could pack up and leave and say I gave it my all. And then I ended up "Hey, so if I could sell your home for you and get you more money, would you let us do that?", whatever it was. And she paused. And she was like "Yeah." And I literally thought it was a joke, that my friend was pranking me. And I said, "Okay..." I didn't even know what to do next. I had never been told yes before.
And okay, great, I set the appointment, told my mentor, we went to the appointment... She sold and bought her next house with us. Ended up being a $75,000 payday for me. And that was my very first of quite a few deals that I did.
So the hard lesson was sometimes you've got to get your ass kicked over and over and over and over and over and over again. And if something's really, really, really worth having, you've got to know that other people have done it before you, other people are successful, and you can be, too.
So the painful lesson was sometimes you've got to get your ass kicked for an entire year and a day before you finally catch a break. But that break will come.
Ash Patel: Yeah. That story gave me chills, so you get a pass on that one. That definitely counts, man. Awesome. Justin, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Justin Moy: Let's do it.
Ash Patel: Alright, Justin, what's the best ever book you recently read?
Justin Moy: I'm a huge fan of "Limitless: Training your brain for greatness."
Ash Patel: What's your big takeaway from that?
Justin Moy: The big takeaway is focus, focus, focused efforts. So he talks a lot about brain activity, how your brain becomes addicted to certain things... And now - I don't know if you've noticed, but people really can't hold their attention for more than about four and a half seconds now, which is an enormous disrupter to productivity. So there's tips and tricks on how to do that, how to condition your brain to be more focused... And I can say my productivity since reading that book has at least 20 times-ed over, because I'm not so distracted with the world now. So Limitless - I love that, and I can't endorse that enough.
Ash Patel: Awesome. Justin, what's the best ever way you like to give back?
Justin Moy: I am huge on children's initiatives, specifically around hunger. Big, big proponent of "We don't choose what we're born into", so a lot of people just need that hand. They need help them they're going up. So really big on initiatives that help the kids in our community and around the world.
Ash Patel: Justin, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Justin Moy: The best way is we have a new eBook. I would love for you to check it out. Give me some feedback. It's called "The Definitive Guide to Passive Real Estate Strategies." You can see it at TheDefinitiveGuideBook.com. Once you go there, sign up for that free book, and I'm gonna send you an email that'll have all my contact info on the bottom. I'd love to connect.
Ash Patel: Justin, thank you for your time today, and sharing your story where you knew that you weren't going the college route. You had a lifelong interest in real estate... Did the typical thing, doing the flips, the wholesaling, became a realtor, got your teeth kicked in for a year... And look at where you're at now. You did a heavy value-add... Great work. Thanks for sharing your story today.
Justin Moy: Ash, I appreciate you so much. Hopefully, your listeners got some great value out of that.
Ash Patel: I'm sure they did. Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review, share this episode with somebody you think can benefit from it. Also, follow, subscribe and have a best ever day.
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