Cooper Drenner is the Managing Partner at Wildhorn Capital, which purchases value-add apartment complexes in Central Texas and syndicates all its deals. In this episode, Cooper discusses how to find good deals in arguably the most competitive market in the U.S., issues facing tenants such as inflation and affordability, and the advantages of keeping investments local.
Cooper Drenner | Real Estate Background
- Managing Partner at Wildhorn Capital
- 4,100 units across 13 Class-A multifamily assets
- Based in: Austin, TX
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: Never Split the Difference by Christopher Voss and Tahl Raz
- Greatest Lesson: Managing people and running a business are different than doing a great deal.
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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Cooper Drenner. Cooper is joining us from Austin, Texas. He's a managing partner of Wild Horn Capital. Wild Horn purchases value add apartment complexes in Central Texas, and they syndicate all of their deals. Cooper's portfolio consists of 13 class A multifamily assets totaling 4,100 units. Cooper, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Cooper Drenner: Ash, I'm good. How are you?
Ash Patel: Very well. Cooper, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Cooper Drenner: Absolutely. And a few things in that bio - that bio is right, but I think it maybe mistells a couple of pieces of the story. So one, I'm a born and raised austenite. In Austin, they call us unicorns, meaning I'm someone that lived here my entire life. I'm 38 years old, I've gotten to see Austin grow and change, with a front row seat. I went to UT. And so in Austin kind of the running joke is if you say you're local, the next question you ask is when did you move here? And I'm someone who's lived here my entire life. My partner Andrew was also a born and raised austenite, and went to UT as well. So I think at the end of the day, we're Central Texas Real Estate guys, and we believe right now that Central Texas multifamily is one of the best places you can be. And a lot of that has to do with Austin. One of my favorite sayings is Austin makes a lot of guys look smarter than they are. And that doesn't mean you can't get hurt here, and there's not things you need to pay attention to...
And then the other thing that I think has changed in our 13 properties, 4,100 units is we've decided to be up and down the risk spectrum around housing in Central Texas, meaning we own some properties with institutional partners, we own some properties with syndication partners that have turned into families that just want to say "Hey guys, we've got $30 million. Let's go buy one property together." So we now own not only some value-add deals with our syndication group, but we also own some class A individual properties with single check-writers. But what I love is they all started in the same funnel, that relationship all started through our friends and family raises, our syndication deals that we do every single day... And so humbled that y'all would invite me on here to talk about what we think is a small little space in our market, but we're really proud to be Austinites and really proud to be from Central Texas and in the space we're in.
Ash Patel: Cooper, how long have you been investing in real estate?
Cooper Drenner: I've been in real estate my entire career. Actually, my father is a land use attorney here in Austin, which is a job that doesn't exist in all parts of the country. One of the things that I think makes Austin a really unique place to invest is that we have a lot of barriers that constrain development here, one of those being land use; a lot of those being ecological issues with the ecology of our place. There's a lot of topography issues. So I grew up around this business. Austin was a much smaller town. That's not a profound saying in the '90s. But I've been investing my entire professional career, so over the last 15 years.
Ash Patel: Let me play devil's advocate... This party isn't going to last forever. What's going to happen, and what are some potential causes of stifling Austin's growth?
Cooper Drenner: I think the answer is the party has never lasted forever. This is the longest the party's ever gone. And so the question, I think, for any real estate investor, anyone who's entering our space... So I was super-fortunate, Ash, that I joined the business in '07. So I was in the business working for the largest developer in Austin called Endeavor Real Estate Group about nine months before the Great Recession happened. And every investment decision I have made since then, I was so fortunate to go through the Great Recession early in my career; it's colored everything I thought about.
I was also growing around the son of a service provider in the real estate industry in Austin. I profoundly remember the crashes in '91, crashes in '99, the tech wreck in 2001. I remember all those. I remember the effect that they had on my family's income, I remember the effect that had on my father's business, I remember the stress they cause in our cities. And so those of us that have been in Austin a very long time are not immune, nor afraid of crashes. We know crashes are a reality; cyclicality is a reality in the real estate business. And so the question I'm always asking both our investors, and I think the question they should be asking us, is one, have you ever been through a correction before? My guess is if you ask that, most of the folks that come on your podcast, their professional career predates a correction, or at the best set their business predates a correction. And that's always the great test, right? Again, economies where we have declining cap rates make everyone look smart.
So back to the question around Austin specifically... We've lived in my lifetime the polar ends of that spectrum. We were the biggest boom/bust market in the country in the '80s, '99, and 2001. But there is profoundly something that changed in 2003. And there's a reason why -- and again, the question isn't "When will there be a crash?" It's "When there is a crash, how does your economy and how does your market react to it?" And I read a lot of headlines about national news, and we have a lot of partners across the country. When a correction happens, Austin, last time in, '08, '09, was the last economy to go to negative job growth, the first to go to positive job growth, and the first to reach pre-recession numbers. That doesn't mean we didn't feel it. That doesn't mean we didn't know a lot of people that had a decline in value. That doesn't mean I didn't know people that lost assets to bankruptcy. But we fared better than any economy in the country.
And in much the same way, if we want to call what happened -- and again, I think we're sort of living a prolonged recession, because we were right here when COVID began... So what we felt as sort of this bottling and pushing of a prolonged recession, but I'm very confident that we will be best positioned, both in housing, and in Central Texas, to weather whatever this storm is. And we're already seeing that data; the cracks that are happening in California, that have nothing to do with us... The cracks that are happening in New York and Illinois. And [unintelligible 00:06:51.25] is the last 15 years Austin has been the most prolific creator of jobs. The places that we have recruited those jobs - first and foremost, California; second, international. Third, New York. Fourth, Illinois. There's a consistent theme there. And again, sometimes it's not always about us, it's what's happening in other places.
Ash Patel: For all of those reasons, that's why we hear "There's no good deals in Austin." I'm guessing you're gonna beg to differ on that... How do you find good deals, and arguably one of the most competitive markets in the US?
Cooper Drenner: Well, the "find good deals" is always interesting for me. I like to talk about risk-adjusted return. So if you're looking for somebody to show you a 20 IRR, I think that 20 IRR and a 14 IRR could both be equally good deals. But that 20 IRR should have a higher risk proposition; or better said, the 14 should be a less risky deal than the 20. So I'm always asking somebody when they show me a book saying "What do you see in here?", at least I'm going to just say as a multifamily operator, the space I live in. So what I'm trying to show investors around a 13, 14 IRR is what I consider the floor. So I'll never in my base case underwriting show an investor, Ash, a refinance. Because if I was in the business of being able to accurately predict what the fund rates are going to be like in three years, and make investment decisions on that, I shouldn't be much wealthier than I am, and I shouldn't need your money.
One of my favorite things for people to think about and a question I pose all the time is a lot of people in our space go to economic development lunches. There's an economic forecast at every city across the country, every Chamber of Commerce; if you graded every one of those papers, they've been 100% wrong for the last 10 years. So again, I'm not saying it's not fair to make predictions, I'm not saying you shouldn't open your crystal ball and try and say that, but if I'm definitively going to base an investment decision about what I think is going to happen, or what I say I know is going to happen in that space, the last 10 years has proven no one knows.
So what we try and do is show you what happens if things go bad. So when you talk about how that relates to Austin, I think when you're just saying "I can't find a deal that hangs a higher IRR", you're probably right. But I'll tell you, we've never showed investors better than 15-16 going in, and upon our exits, we've been averaging a 30. And that's because what we think is "I want to show you what I know, what I can see, what I can touch. I'm going to show you my underwriting in my base case [unintelligible 00:09:29.08] So what I'm closing into, I can control that. And then I'm going to show you what I think can happen if things go well. But we're not going to base what I'm promising you on in that.
The other term, Ash, that you may not even be referring to this is I think we should stop using IRR. I think it's a bad stat, because you never get to see my Excel model. And if you're remotely proficient, which every operator on here is, I can make that IRR say whatever I want it to say. But you know what I can't fake? Cash on cash. So a lot of investors don't know that, and so they get hung up on an IRR. Or I sell a deal in a year, I could have done that the last couple of years, I could have sold the deal a year after we bought it, and [unintelligible 00:10:06.17] but the cash on cash with that was going to be a 1.13. That's not what you signed up for. But I've got a 40 IRR. Now I just gave you a tax problem, and I didn't complete -- like, you gave me this money somewhat so it would have depreciation against your taxes over the course of time, and accrue wealth. I kind of accrued wealth, but I gave you a stat that's pretty dang hollow, so I could hang a banner, so I could come on podcasts like this and say "I deliver 40s." And I think sometimes we have to change that.
But around how we do it, every deal we've ever bought in Austin, somehow we've had a connection to the deal, the seller, or the broker. We've never bought one in a fully-marketed process where we'v just hung the highest number; that's like saying, "I'm really good at silent auctions." I can win all the silent auctions I want if I'm willing to pay the highest price. But we've had some kind of edge in the deal. Some of that's because it's a small town. There's five or six brokerage shops that handle the preponderance of real estate in Austin. Andrew and I at least have a 20-year relationship with one of the guys or gals in those shops... We just think that's important in this day and age, and being local, and being relational, and knowing the people you're doing business with, and your reputation matters... So that somehow translates to every deal we do.
Ash Patel: You have homefield advantage. I love what you said about cash on cash returns. I do the same thing. I hate IRR. Cash on cash is a number that's hard to fake. And then instead of IRR, I'll use cash on cash upon sale. Annualized cash on cash upon sale.
Cooper Drenner: I think if anybody's listening to this podcast who's investing, ask people that. I want that stat. You can't fake that stat.
Ash Patel: Thank you.
Cooper Drenner: And by the way, there are reasons why you should get out of deals. If I had bought a deal, the market ran, and I'm looking in the mirror, seeing what I think debt is, and I'm worried about that. There is a reason and time to sell early, hang a banner, get a big IRR. But as an investor, don't let that be the reason why you do a deal. Don't let IRR be the reason why you're investing in Orange Beach, Alabama, versus Austin, Texas. And I'm not saying Orange Beach is a bad market. Amazon did some deals there. I saw so many Orange Beach packages for a year. But because one's showing you a 25 IRR and one's showing you a 14, we're living in right now is what the floor of those markets look like. And I think that's the thing that I hope investors learn coming out of whatever we're going to live through, is - yes, chase a high IRR, but understand there are higher risks associated with it.
Ash Patel: Yeah, let's start a movement. So Benson, Austin - have they stabilized, are they still going up? And we're in March of 2023.
Cooper Drenner: March 2023. They're still going up. So we have a good data point, and we get called on a lot, and I love sharing data. I just think that's the right thing to do. But we're in both A and B space across the city, and in San Antonio. So we're a pretty good snapshot, where it's not just North Austin A properties, or South Austin B properties. We're pretty diverse in that area.
One of the things that we saw this year, at least in Austin, and I think it's been true, is we actually saw seasonality happen. That was something we always lived and breathed, was seasonality. November, December was slower. And spring was when you started to see a ramp up in rents. COVID kind of changed everybody; a lot of people were doing six-month extensions, which sort of threw off your terminations... And we kind of saw the 10 months leading up to whatever this correction was was like a lack of seasonality. It was sort of steadily going up, but we didn't see these bins and seasonality from traffic. We saw that this year.
So I would say November, December was really when we started to kind of feel a slowdown... And the other thing that's really fascinating in the day and age - and I don't really want to talk too much about it, but in the day and age of revenue management or how you are sort of making your market rate decisions, you also see different landlords are at different level of hands-on. And so if you're kind of asleep at the switch, you can either overreact or underreact. Or when you send in -- we saw this a lot when the world was starting to take off... We would be experiencing a 20% trade-out on renewals. We were getting these huge renewal pops. And then we'd be underwriting a deal and they were only getting 2% or 3%. And we'd be sitting there, asking ourselves a question, going, "Is this property snake-bit? Is there something wrong?" No, the landlord just was a little late in reacting to the market, and they weren't really willing to trust what they saw, or they were just kind of locking it and leaving it.
And so what I think we saw in the fall was a lot of landlords wake up and go, "Hm, there's at least somewhat of a flattening, or a correction", and the first place you saw it was your renewals. Because at this point, everyone was sending out these renewal packages with 60 days notice, in some cases 20%. Just these big numbers. And 2 out of 20 people were saying yes, and you're going "Oh, my goodness. So my train ,dipped all of my KPIs sort of set off alarm bells..." And so they had kind of two ways to react, and typically what they did was bring market rates way back down, offer a ton of concessions to try and boost up that occupancy. What that does to your neighboring properties if you overreact to them overreacting can be bad.
So we've kind of seen the world sort of smooth out. Everybody's agreed that there's somewhat of a flattening and rents. But I would tell you, across our portfolio, on renewals, we're still getting somewhere between 3% and 7% when we're getting 50% of our people renewing, which is historically incredibly healthy. There are some bi-weeks or weeks that we're getting 11%.
So we're not getting negative renewals, we're not flattening, we're still getting growth. I would say on average probably around 5% to 6%. And then our trade-outs, we're still getting 10%, 11%. I would say, in some cases, every once in a while, you'll have a negative trade-out if you're coming off a six-month lease, or somebody sort of signed a rate at the peak of time last year, when the world was at its highest peak, which I think last March is -- whenever we sort of grade the paper, last March is going to be probably the high point of the mountain.
Ash Patel: What data points do you use to determine rents, and how often do you change rents?
Cooper Drenner: We change rents every day. The majority of our assets are on some form of revenue management, but we have to override those every day. And it's a tangent, Ash, but it's also why we've stayed super-focused in Central Texas. We only know one way to do this thing, and that's being in our assets every day, knowing our sub markets. I can't manage if I own in Raleigh, Durham the way I do in Austin, especially in an economy that's moving and changing and dynamic. So we're looking at them every day.
I think it's really important you know your comp set. Not just what my comp set is, but why my comp set is my comp set. Because a bad comp set either gives you a false sense of security, or makes you think the world's doing something that it's not. So we're looking at them every day, we're seeing what revenue management tells us we think we should be doing, and then we're making our own decisions. And then we're going through all of our renewals on a person by person basis. Because at the end of this, one of the reasons I love this business is it's a people business. It's a relationship business. And I'm making sure our staff members and our assets are reminding people, "I don't want you just sending a renewal out and posting it on someone's door. I want you to walk down, I want you to talk to them about it. I want you to put it in front of them. I want you to understand their situation, to make sure we're giving the best position to keep the people that we want to keep at our properties."
Ash Patel: That's a tall ask, delivering bad news in-person.
Cooper Drenner: Well, I don't know if a renewal is bad news. If I've done my job and I've improved and continue to improve the properties that I live in... I don't blame anybody for wanting to go look around. If they want to stay in the part of town and in the same kind of property that they're living in right now, my renewal should be fair and in line. And if we've done a good job, and we have a relationship with someone... I think people want to be known. I think people want to know -- we've had a couple ice storms in the last couple of years. I think they want to know how you're gonna react when the chips are down. I think they want to know what you're going to do when something doesn't go right. And if we've done our job, something like that's happened in their term, and they know us and know how we're going to handle it.
And so I think a renewal is not bad news. I think the renewal is "We made a yearlong commitment. I hope we lived up to that commitment. If you paid your rent every month, you lived up to your commitment. We want to make another commitment with you for another period of time, and let's have a conversation of what you want that to look like."
Ash Patel: That is a great outlook. I want to circle back... You literally change rents that often? So if I call this week, it could be one number. Call next week, it can be another?
Cooper Drenner: 100%. I think it should be. If I've got three floor plans and two of them leased, now there's a scarcity premium. And by the way, if I know really well that my sub market - there's no other one-bedrooms that are better than my one-bedroom, I should be able to push rents incrementally.
The thing we're learning right now as everyone's going through their tests with their lenders is your lender's never going to give you credit for being 100% leased. Some people want to be 100% leased, but if you're 100% leased, you could argue that you might be leaving some money on the table. So I think it's a righteous goal, but I don't think you should be afraid to make sure that dynamic -- and as investors, I think that's what you should be asking of the people you invest with.
One of the questions I'm sure you're going to ask me is "Give me a story where something's gone wrong." I've got a bunch of them. But you can't always control a plumbing leak, or you can't always control an act of God. But what you should be asking of me is how are we going to dig ourselves out if that happens? What's going to be that granularly?
Ash Patel: What are your biggest risks? Are you locked in on debt, or rising rates is a challenge for you?
Cooper Drenner: I think rising rates are a challenge for everybody. Even if you have fixed-rate debt, rates affect what someone can pay you for your property. We're really, really blessed and fortunate, and I'm not going to tell you -- everyone knew rates would go up at a point in time, but I think what you sort of said is [00:20:52.03] I would have predicted that would happen five years ago. I was wrong.
So at some point, you have to be able to make some decisions. So for all of the places where we had some kind of bridge debt, or floating rate debt, we're into our rate caps, which is why it was good that we all had rate caps. So we're not sitting there on any debt that's just everyday the wind moves and changes, we have to react and live. We're also really fortunate that we never took too much leverage. I think where you're seeing most of the distress is when you took above 70% leverage, and by golly, they were begging you to do it; they're begging you to take 80%, 85%. Or - you know how this goes, Ash... You do a deal and you sign up the debt, you're looking at it, you find some kind of bugaboo, and you go, "I'm just gonna go get a little [unintelligible 00:21:34.29] to cap it off at the end, so I can still show the investors the return I said I was gonna return." Those sorts of "I'mma kind of just drop it on top, or maybe it helps my returns", are hurting people.
So our average debt across our portfolio is 65% LTV. We have some fixed rate, we have probably an equal amount of agency loans, as we do floating rate debt. All of our floating rate debt, we know exactly where we sit. Today, knock on wood, I don't think we're going to have to have a capital call across any of our portfolio, which is a blessing. But that doesn't mean there hasn't been some erosion in value. If I sold any of our deals today, they would sell for a lesser number than they sold six months ago. That's not a profound statement, but everyone's got to be honest about that.
Ash Patel: Yeah. And again, it's refreshing having a conversation with someone else who's lived through all the ups and downs from '99. Anyone under the age of 33 really hasn't seen hard times.
Cooper Drenner: Never had to deal with it.
Ash Patel: Yeah.
Cooper Drenner: And I'll be the first to say, I was living it in Austin, and it felt hard, and it wasn't even close to hard compared to what people were feeling in Phoenix. Now, love Phoenix as a market. Scottsdale. These places... There's sometimes you can, just as a human, go "What I'm living through is tough." But then if you widen your gaze and widen your perspective... So we have partners in New York, in LA, in San Francisco, in Chicago, and when I talked to them about what's happening here now, versus what you're hearing about values on some properties in New York - and again, my favorite place in the world to go visit - it's like I'm living in two different deals. There's no place in central Texas that assets are trading at 40% of value. It's just not existing. And really, what we've tended to see the last two cycles that when we've cycled well is there's just very few trades. And that's what we're seeing in Austin right now. An interesting stat - one of the biggest brokerage houses, Newmark, who had 25 transactions in December of last year, had one this year.
Ash Patel: What is Austin lacking the most? Is ita Class A, B, C, retail, office, industrial? What is the most sought after, and most in-demand asset class right now, in terms of the end user?
Cooper Drenner: Great question. I'm gonna answer it slightly different and then get to you. I think affordability is one of the bigger issues in Austin. I have a lot of empathy for renters across the country when they've seen inflation. Inflation always hits the renter at the end of the day; rents become inflated in some way, or costs go up, or governments charge people more things... Well, that always has a trickle-down effect to the end user.
So in Texas, I think we're blessed, and it's a good thing that we don't have rent control... But in Austin especially, where we -- for all the reasons I stated, don't make it easy to add a lot of supply. It's a great thing from an investment standpoint, because I can actually underwrite a supply gap in a really strong way, and we don't tend to over-build markets. But I think what that trades out to is we have a lack of what I would call really affordable Class A garden properties.
I think we've done well on our high rises, we've not overbuilt downtown, our high rises are really sequestered to our downtown. We're not a city that sprawled with multiple downtowns. [unintelligible 00:24:47.05] product tends to do really well. We haven't really misthought that. I think there's going to be some interesting podium deals that are going to deliver over the next six months that are going to be trying to achieve rents in places where they've never gotten three bucks a foot, and it'll be fascinating to see it play itself out.
And by the way, I've been wrong on a lot of those, where I've said, "I'm not sure rents will ever get to be this there", and I've been wrong. But when you look at what you're seeing [unintelligible 00:25:11.24] day in day out Austin I'd complain about - it's a lack of affordable housing that's not a B to B minus.
Ash Patel: Got it. What is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Cooper Drenner: It's a great question. I think at the end of the day -- I get this from my business coach a lot, which is the quality of your question is going to give you the best amount of data. And so it's a lot less about what I say, but there's always something you don't want somebody to ask you. So to our IRR question, I think really understanding the things that can be manipulated... Because at the end of the day, when someone's investing with you, the prospectus I show you in the beginning is that. But the day we close this deal, that gets torn up. That's our best guess of what day 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 through whatever is gonna look like. But by the time you make it to day 365, something has changed. Something has been better or worse.
I think the other question is -- someone told me this early on, is everybody tends to agree what happens when things go good. And I think this is a great time to study folks, is "How do they give bad news? How do they react when the chips are down? How do they communicate with their investors when they've got bad news to give?" Because undoubtedly, for those of us that have lived through recessions, we know that the smartest developers in the country are going to have a bad deal that comes out of this. That's just a reality. And if you've been in enough cycles, you're going to have a deal that delivers -- even if you don't miss, because I don't think anybody that's delivering at eight, nine and 10 right now should be called a miss. If you're making someone money right now, that's a great thing. If you're maintaining value, that's a great thing. I don't think that's something you should build a business on, but... There's different levels of misses. But I want to know how someone reacts when things don't go well.
And I guess the last piece of advice is, know your markets before you invest in them; or at least know why someone doesn't know them. Because part of the reason why I'm -- not scared, but I'm hesitant to go to other markets, is... One of my favorite movies is Rounders, and one of the old sayings in Rounders is, "If you don't know who the mark at the poker table is, it's probably you." And so I know when someone shows up, and we all see when someone shows up and buys a number on an asset and they go, "Oh, they don't understand the city." I think that's part of the reason why being local and understanding these markets really, really matters... Because today that little edge is going to sometimes make all the difference in the world when you can't just rely on unprecedented rent growth and a declining, pressing cap rate.
Ash Patel: I love your outlook. Cooper, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Cooper Drenner: Let's hit it.
Ash Patel: Alright, what's the Best Ever book you've recently read?
Cooper Drenner: I just finished Peter Z. Han, "The end of the world is just beginning", which is kind of a popular book. I think Peter's interesting. Again, this idea of widening your gaze... Because what's happening -- not just what's happening in your market, but understanding why what's happening in other places affects your place is really interesting. Peter's smart, Peter comes from a place - if you listen to Joe Rogan, he's on their lot, where he's telling you he's sure he knows what's going to happen, and he may be... But it was a great way to consider things, and how they affect my daily life in ways that I didn't fully understand.
Ash Patel: Cooper, what's the Best Ever way you like to give back?
Cooper Drenner: My wife and I are deacons at our church; we're very involved in the marriage ministry in our church. We love mentoring young couples, and that doesn't mean our marriage is perfect, but we think that just being able to serve in our local community... And then I'm the chairman this year of the Real Estate Council of Austin, which is the largest governing body of all real estate professionals in Central Texas... So this year I'm volunteering to be the tip of the spear for over 2,000 real estate individuals in Central Texas, advocating on their behalf at the city and state.
Ash Patel: And Cooper, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Cooper Drenner: Our website is a great place to get a hold of us, wildhorncap.com. And then my LinkedIn, just Cooper Drenner. We love meeting new folks, and anyone that has interest in getting to know us, [unintelligible 00:29:00.11] Bennett who is our Director of Investor Relations is someone that easily sets up a lot of time for Andrew and I.
One of our big theses, Ash, is if you invest with me one time, that's probably not been a good use of your time or my time. There's always an entry deal, but a relationship and trust is going to be what creates a long-term relationship, and the ability to do business together for a long time. So we are interested in knowing our people; we're interested in going and seeing our investors on the road, and we're interested in hosting him here. We're not interested in just collecting your money and you getting a newsletter from us every month.
Ash Patel: Again, I love your outlook. Cooper, thank you so much for your time today. You've given us the ins and outs of Austin; one of the godfathers of Austin here, giving us insight and knowledge on the area. So thank you again for your time.
Cooper Drenner: Well, I appreciate being invited. Thank you.
Ash Patel: Best Ever listeners, thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review. Share this podcast with someone you think can benefit from it. Also, follow, subscribe and have a Best Ever day.
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