Brett Swarts is the founder of Capital Gains Tax Solutions, which helps investors pursue their financial goals while navigating the exit of their highly appreciated assets and solving their capital gains tax challenges. In this episode, Brett explains how deferred sales trusts work as an alternative to 1031 exchanges, deferring capital gains taxes while still allowing investors access to the cash from their property sale.
Brett Swarts | Real Estate Background
- Founder of Capital Gains Tax Solutions
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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed, and today I'm here with Brett Schwartz. He's a returning guest after two and a half years. He's based in St. Augustine, Florida, also has operations in California. He's the founder of Capital Gains Tax Solutions, which eliminates the need for the 1031 exchange. His real estate holdings are primarily limited partner positions in multifamily, industrial, and medical office. Brett, tell us a little bit more about your background and Capital Gains Tax Solutions.
Brett Swarts: Mr. Reid, it's so good to be here. Thanks for having me on the show today. Yeah, I grew up in the real estate industry in the Silicon Valley, East Bay area of California, and fell in love with real estate at a young age, building houses with my mom and my dad and my brother, driving the bobcat, hammering the nails; really just fell in love with the sticks and bricks of real estate. Moved on to Marcus and Millichap, where I studied and practiced multifamily brokerage in 2006. Fell in love with the 1031 exchange, and then had a big awakening with the '08 crash of real estate for clients, friends and family losing half of everything when it came to overpaying for property, having too much debt, not enough liquidity... We had to, in the words of COVID-19, pivot at that point, and figure out a way to solve the problem for clients, and that's when we learned about what we're gonna be talking about today, the deferred sales trust as a way to eliminate the 1031 exchange...
But it wasn't always easy mystery; I was working side hustles, barely surviving, working in Cheesecake Factory by nights, cold calls at Marcus & Millichap by day... So we went through this in the first episode, and you can learn more about that... But I share that because if you're listening to this, if you're just starting out, and you have an idea of something that somebody is skeptical about, persevere long enough and keep believing and succeed on whatever strategy or thing that you're working on.
Slocomb Reed: Nice. So let's dive in. You're talking about avoiding the need for a 1031 exchange here... What is a deferred sales trust?
Brett Swarts: A deferred sales trust is an installment sale known as a seller carryback, if you're listening to this, coupled with a trust that jumps in right in between you and the ultimate buyer. So as a seller, if you wanted a) deferred capital gains tax, b) not be trapped by the 1031 [unintelligible 00:04:10.05] and c) be able to diversify that wealth, the deferred sales trust is a great way for the money to be parked, and you receive a promissory note. In other words, you're trading an ownership hat to become a lender, and it's to this trust. Now, once this trust buys your asset, let's say for 10 million, Mr. Reed, and has the buyer lined up for 10 million, all on the simultaneous close, typically in the same day, the trust ultimately ends up with the cash, you end up with the promissory note, and the buyer takes title the same way they would. And in this scenario, you're deferring the tax, because you haven't received the capital at closing. It's sort of like if you sent the funds to a Qualified Intermediary. You're deferring the tax, because you haven't received it at closing. But what happens once it's in the trust is where the magic begins, and we can dive into that if you're ready.
Slocomb Reed: I don't know how relatable this will be to the majority of our listener base, but as an Ohio investor, I am well familiar with double-closing with an entity in the middle. It sounds like that's what's happening here. I sell into a trust, the trust is selling to the end buyer, the trust is holding the funds... And then what?
Brett Swarts: And then you get to invest with - every real estate person wants to hear, if you're listening to this... We'll call this the Best Ever time to invest, which is either right now, or when the deal makes sense. Now, we always encourage you to get going, but we can go into multifamily lending, which is actually a nice way to get some good returns, until that multifamily project comes up. It's one of our favorites, but for some people it's putting into T-bills right now, paying 4% to 5%. For some people, if they like the stock market, they can go into the stock market. For others, it's ground-up development. We have a client, we did a $30 million exit in San Diego, and it was for developers, and they'd buy these two-acre lots, they'd build carwashes on them, and then they'd sell it. They sold it for 13 million, and Tax-a-Fornia - there's about a 40% tax on that, state federal Obamacare depreciation recapture. And so instead of paying 40% of their gain, they deferred 100% of their capital gains tax, and their strategy has been to keep the funds basically liquid into multifamily lending until they can buy deals at a discount.
So for everyone it's a little bit different, but the key is there's no timing restrictions, there's also no asset class restrictions, like the 1031. There's also no debt requirements replacement restrictions. In other words, you can get debt-free, get diversified, you'd be on the sidelines, and you can wait. Now, a lot of our clients also like going back into Ashcroft Capital, right into your guys' funds, in value-add multifamily, with portions of the funds. In other words, you can diversify within different syndications without having to do the 1031 at all.
Slocomb Reed: So the trust that has received the funds, the proceeds from the sale of the asset that I put into it, is the trust that is redeploying that capital into loans, LP positions, other assets. A couple of questions here... The primary one though is when do I get my money back? I imagine whenever I would receive capital gains from the sale of something out of the trust, and that would be taxed, wouldn't it?
Brett Swarts: Yes. I'm gonna answer your question in two parts. The first part is that all depends. If you want the trust to go directly into an asset, it can; however, we also structure it where it can go into an LLC first, and that LLC can then go into the asset, which gives you a new depreciation schedule on that LLC, and gives you the ability to get some of the upside.
So at first, you're just the lender, but the second part I call -- you're an owner. We couple that and we call that lendership. At first, you're just the lender, and some of our clients are just like "Hey, I sold a $10 million business, I deferred 4 million in tax... Look, I just want to be passive, I just want cash flow, and as I receive the cash back on the trust that earns, I'll pay tax on that." Our notes are typically structured between 6% and 9%, depending on the risk tolerance of the client. They'll get a 1099 [unintelligible 00:08:17.29] on any of the interest payments they receive, with a balloon payment due in 10 years. And that balloon pay will be the rest of the money that's owed to them, and that's when they would pay capital gains tax. Or they can renew it for another 10 years and keep it going, but they'll slowly pay income tax along the way. So that's one way to structure it.
The other way, which is our preferred way, that we really like, is to form a new LLC, and you joint venture partner with the LLC. And by doing it in this order, Mr. Reed, you're able to not only keep the tax deferred, but then get a stake... It's kind of like taking an ownership stake of this LLC, but you get the majority of the upside, but the trust puts up all of the funds. In that scenario, you can exit that position and get another promissory note. So think of it like a delayed tax trust, is another way to think about it. Think of it like an IRA, or a 401 K, think of it like a 1031, but it's really flexible, and it becomes this wealth-building machine as you unlock the layers of what it can do, as long as you stay within the guidelines. So I think that answers both questions.
Slocomb Reed: But when it comes to these deferred sales trusts, what is it that your company is doing?
Brett Swarts: Our role is the trustee. We're sort of like the offensive coordinator, or the quarterback, and essentially we're getting everyone in line. As a commercial real estate broker myself, selling over $500 million of DSTs and multifamily properties over the years, and investing, I have a unique skill set that helps everyone to make sure that they're in line. So there's the tax attorney who's creating the structure; he's one of my business partners. He's the legal and audit defense. He's close to a 30-year track record with all of these DSTs, thousands of closes. He provides that. My role is a third party trustee to keep the funds in the trust from being taxed to you, or unrelated to you; sort of like a Qualified Intermediary. And then we work with a third party financial advisor for those that are wanting to invest into the stock market and diversify some of their wealth.
So collectively, I'm connecting all of those parties, as well as making sure that the trust itself is making the payments back to the note holder, timely, and everything is organized in that manner. So that's our main role here at Capital Gains Tax Solutions.
Slocomb Reed: Who is the note holder?
Brett Swarts: It's the seller. So if it was your sale of a property or a business or a cryptocurrency - by the way, the deferred sales trust works for any asset of any kind; to qualify, you need a million dollar net proceeds, a million dollar gain is the minimum... But you as the seller are the note holder. Another way to think about it - you're the bank or the creditor, you lent the money to the trust, you sold the asset to the trust, and you carry paper for the trust. If you had debt, you'd just pay off the debt, whatever you had to the bank, and whatever's left over, the net proceeds would be owed back to you. And then again, the ultimate buyer would put the money into the trust as well. So that's how that whole thing works there.
Slocomb Reed: So let's go back to the example where I am the seller. We've created the trust, I've effectively lent the money to the trust, and I'm carrying a note. What are the requirements are the restrictions on that lender/borrower relationship between me and this new trust that you've helped me form? I may have not fully understood what you were saying about 6% or 9% interest payments.
Brett Swarts: So it's important to understand that you are a bank; you are lending the funds, which means there's a promissory note, which is your asset, which is what you own... And attached to that is an interest rate. And attached to that is a payment schedule. So if you have a loan on a multifamily property now, fixed for interest only payments for three years, and then it's principal and interest, it's 25-year am. We can set and customize the payment back to you based upon your needs and your desires. So you say "Hey, Brett, I would have paid 4 million of tax. I'm selling a $10 million business. I want to defer the tax." Cool, you get the full 10 million. The 10 million is owed back to you, plus a rate of return. Let's say it's 8%, that's $800,000 a year. You might have that promissory note and the investment's accruing and building, but you might delay the payment for a year or two, and then slowly take payments over time. So you are the lender. That's step one, and that's fine. But better than that, you can be the lender for the first part, but you can do a joint venture LLC, which is a new ownership entity down here. And the trust of that 10 million infuses this capital that can be invested in to develop real estate, another business venture.
We did a cryptocurrency exit where they had about 50 million of Bitcoin, and they had 5 million [unintelligible 00:12:48.08] They exited at five, deferred the tax, and they put four of the five into a joint venture partnership LLC to do a startup, an online tech company.
We've also had other clients sell assets, businesses or real estate, primary homes, and then they invested into passive commercial real estate deals. And the key is the structuring to unlock ways to grow the trust, and grow your wealth through new LLCs. So the answer, Mr. Reed, is it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish, and it depends on how we're going to structure this based upon your risk tolerance... So you are the creditor for the trust, and as the trustee, I'm a fiduciary to you the creditor, to get your money back plus a rate of return. Nothing was without your approval or your signature; we use third party banking institutions, and third party investment companies like Ashcroft Capital for the funds to be invested in... But it's pretty flexible. Most things we can do. The only things you can't do, you can't put it into a primary home tax deferred; you can take a payment from the 10, let's say, and pay your tax on and go buy a primary home, but the key is the investments must be for business purpose or investment purpose, which allows it to stay in a tax-deferred manner. Same way that a 1031 exchange works - you can't 1031 into a primary home.
Slocomb Reed: That does make sense. And the advantage of forming a joint venture with the DST is that effectively the trust could fund future ventures that I'm controlling as the member CEO, or what have you.
Brett Swarts: You nailed that. You got it. And you just owed back the money back to the investor, plus a preferred rate of return. We typically mirror the promissory note at eight. So if we put 10 in there, and let's say 1 million goes to this joint venture, we're gonna match and mirror the 8% pref here with an 8% pref here, on that million. Although we're gonna give you the majority of the upside, Mr. Reed, which is really cool, but you put no money in. But you are the brains, you are running an LLC, you open an LLC bank account, you are filling out the subscription paperwork, if you're an accredited investor, all those things to get all of that moving. You don't have to be an accredited investor, by the way. I'm just giving you a scenario if you were to go into something that required accreditation
Slocomb Reed: You're an accredited investor by default, because you can't start one of these without --
Brett Swarts: Yeah, it's a good point. It's a good point. Just throwing that out there, because it's really flexible. It's not like the self-directed IRAs, Mr. Reed, where you have to have to all these challenges when it comes to "Oh, you can't be managing the property, or running the deal, or this." We don't have any of that stuff. We're not a retirement account. People use that as a way to create retirement income, but we don't have any of the 401K or the IRA stipulations that are all those boxes that are can be challenging for some folks.
Slocomb Reed: Now, assuming that if I ever take my capital, or if the DST ever repays me the capital that got put into it when I sold the asset in the first place, that would trigger capital gains whenever it happens in the future, correct?
Brett Swarts: Correct. You might do principal and interest payments; to the extent you dip into principal, Mr. Reid, you're gonna pay capital gains tax on that. To the extent you just take interest payments, it's gonna be ordinary income tax. Here's the key - you can't choose cap gains tax; you have to take out interest first, and then dip into the principal. Some clients say "Of the 10 million, I want 2 million to buy a house, or buy a boat", whatever, it's your money; take it. We can schedule that initial payment upfront, you pay cap gains on that. But as soon as it starts to accrue interest, we're going to have to pay the interest out first, and then dip into the principal... Which creates some really unique advantages, because you might have a loss three years from now on $3 million, of which you were probably able to accelerate the payment on the interest payment... It's kind of like a refinance, if you will, and take an additional 3 million into the principal. And then that same year, you can wash out that tax. So we call this taxflow engineering. Pay the tax at optimal timing, invest at optimal timing, get the cash flow that you want based upon your lifetime and what you're trying to do.
Slocomb Reed: Thinking through one of the classic adages about 1031 exchange investing, "Swap till you drop", what happens to the deferred sales trust when I, the person who initially "lent" the funds through the sale die?
Brett Swarts: Great question. It all depends. You have two trusts. Number one is a DST 1.0, Mr. Reed. Your children can step into your shoes and continue the tax deferral, and they can pass it to their kids and keep it going. Not ideal as a stepped up basis, as you will; however, we have a DST 2.0 that removes it outside of your taxable state... Because one of the downsides with the stepped up basis is it doesn't move it outside your taxable state. So we can move it and eliminate that 40% debt tax, and also eliminate the capital gains tax. However, the payments from this DST 2.0 over your lifetime would be a mix between ordinary income tax and capital gains tax. So you can either have a stepped up basis, or outside your taxable estate, but you can't have both. So you've really got to focus on what are we trying to solve for Mr. Reid? Are we solving for estate tax ultra high net worth, which is about 24 million married right now, 12 million single, although that's set to cut in half and 2026... And sometimes it's a mixture between multiple strategies. Sometimes you're doing a partial 1031, and a partial deferred sales trust. Sometimes you're doing a partial Delaware statutory trust, which we get confused with a lot of times, and a partial deferred sales trust; sometimes you're doing a mixture of all three. So it really just depends on what you're trying to solve. So what I like to say is "Where are you trying to go? Who's the team to help you get there? And what strategies are going to help you unlock what you're trying to unlock?" And sometimes it's the mixture of multiple strategies. But the key is to have a team in place and we'd love the opportunity to be that team.
Slocomb Reed: Brett, I want to ask a very direct question... I also want to preempt one of the responses I will expect you to get by asking you for it. Frankly, I want to ask how much it is that you're charging for setting these up and continuing to act as trustee... I also want to recognize though that there's a significant amount of tax savings or tax deferral that's going on, and so I'm sure that what you charge based on how it gets set up is significantly less than the tax bill would be for some one who doesn't work with you to do anything to defer their capital gains tax. All of that said, what does that look like?
Brett Swarts: Great question. So let's just keep it simple. Let's say it's a million dollar apartment building that you're selling tomorrow. What would be the cost? There's really two sets of fees. One is the tax attorney, my business partner - he's a one-time fee of 1.5% on the first million. So in this scenario, $15,000 of the gross sales price.
Now, if it were a $2 million sale of an asset, then it would be that $15,000 on that first million, and then another $12,500 on that second million. So $12,500 in the second million, $15,000 on that first million... One-time fee covers lifetime audit [unintelligible 00:20:39.25] The second set of fees is to me as the trustee, along with the financial advisor; no matter how or where you invest the funds, it's about 1.5% to 2% on a recurring basis, year in and year out, for as long as the trust is intact. Now, our goal is to typically net you 6% to 9% net of those recurring fees; not a guarantee, we've gotta go make the money.
So the next part of the question is, how do we make this thing, the DST, an investment, not an expense? And you really hit the nail on the head in the beginning, Mr. Reed. You said "There's got to be enough tax liabilities to defer in order to make this make sense." This is why we have a million dollar net proceeds, a million dollar gain per transaction, unless you have two at 500k each; then we can combine it. So you can start to scale. Same way you might buy 150 units versus just buying 20 units, you can scale the management and be able to scale the costs. So we have to have enough of the government's money to defer in order for the whole trust to make sense. So that's what we've found is the good number. And then of course, we unlock ways with new depreciation schedules, we unlock ways for optimal timing; hopefully, you're buying at the right time, hopefully you're not taking on bad debt, in a bad market, with a bad 1031, so we're saving you there... Hopefully, you're diversifying and have the funds liquid available to jump on the opportunities when they make sense...
What we've found in the 2008 crash is that people didn't have enough liquidity diversification, and they had overpaid for properties in '05 and '06, and then in '07 things really started to stop, and then in '08 it was just a disaster. The bottom of the real estate market wasn't until 2011. So there's this range here where people had an opportunity to make fortunes as if they had capital, if they were financible, and if the funds were liquid, and tax-deferred. We feel like this is the bridge. Most people have the expertise, they have the knowledge, they have the teams, but if their capital is so tied up in deals with debt that's adjusting, or running out of caps, this bridge here is to be able to exit at the right time, pay off the debt, diversify the wealth, and then buy when the deals make sense. So hopefully that makes sense in the full picture there.
Slocomb Reed: It does. And you've referenced that 6% to 9% net return a couple of times now... And there are a couple of other things you've said that beg this question. As my trustee, you're still acting as I instruct with regards to how the funds get reinvested, correct? It's not like I'm handing them to you to invest on my behalf on things of your choosing, that will get me the net 6% to 9%.
Brett Swarts: The biggest misconception is that I'm gonna give up all my control. You give up some control, but by the way, when you send the funds to a Qualified Intermediary, you're giving up some control. So you have what's called indirect control. And by the way, I always say "Choose your control, Mr. Reed." You can choose your control; you can have unilateral control and 25% to 50% of your gain can be wiped out tomorrow. And you can have unilateral control and just pay your tax. So you say "Well, what kind of controls do I need to give up to keep the government's money working for me, and my money working for me?" Well, there's the 1031 option, which we understand; you have a 45 to 180 [unintelligible 00:23:36.16] Think of this like a long-term 1031.
But to answer your question directly, nothing will ever move or be invested without your approval. You have all the rights and protections of a lender; you must approve of all investments. Now, I also must approve of all investments. It's important understand that you don't have unilateral approval of all investments, but you have veto power, where if something weren't to look good, you weren't ready to go, nothing will move. It will sit in the bank, waiting. We don't recommend that; you can at least put it into T-bills making 4% to 5%. But it's your money, you have to approve it. Think of it like a bank like this: I will loan Mr. Reed on the $50 million apartment complex, but he needs to have fire insurance, he needs to make sure that he's providing proper financials, he needs to make sure you're making the payments on time... He might even set up auto ACH for these payments... These are all the rights and protections or controls that lenders put in place. And so we put these controls in place to make sure that you can get as much control without having unilateral control... Because guess what - unilateral control would be taxable. That's the same reason why you can't be your own 1031 exchange accommodator. That'd be taxable. Does that makes sense, Mr. Reed?
Slocomb Reed: It does, yeah. I probably should have said this earlier in the episode, Brett, but I'm building up to my own attempts to summarize everything that we discussed in around two minutes... Let's see if I can swing it. Before I do that though, I feel it's important to ask, where have you seen these DSTs go wrong? Do you have any examples? Obviously, redact names and specifiers, but give us an idea of when these things were not done correctly.
Brett Swarts: I think the biggest things when people really change asset classes, they go from all-in on real estate, and they don't have a great understanding or comfort level with the stock market, and they're like, "Well, I can diversify into the stock market", which you can. But now all of a sudden, it's like a fish swimming out of water. You're used to making wealth with real estate, predictable, essentially value-add, multifamily, stable, 97%, occupied pro business states, growing economies and/ur job bases... And now you're moving into the stock market, which has so many variables that the financial advisor cannot control. China, inflation, government policies... Just, overall, all of that. So all of a sudden, emotionally, they went from something really stable, and now they're over here, and they're seeing the fluctuations.
Also, real estate - you don't see the fluctuations every single day. It's not like you just click a button and see it on your phone what's going on. So I would say for those that exited and didn't put as much into the real estate investments, which tend to be my favorite - for those, it's like "I'm frustrated. I feel like the investments aren't doing what they should do." Now, the other side of that would be if the stock market actually goes up; now it's all high fives, and everyone's excited and stuff. So I would just say understanding and getting a feel for those things.
And number two, we've done deals that are a little bit smaller. We have a client, she's out of the Bay Area, and she was a luxury realtor; she wanted to do it for a $700,000 house. And the numbers weren't too bad; the tax deferred was about 160k. But the point of it wasn't so much that as it was it didn't mean a lot to her. So $160,000 didn't mean a lot to her. So for her, she's going, "I'm paying these fees, I'm deferring 160k, on about $700,000..." It wasn't painful enough. So I actually tried to talk her out of it to start. I said "I think it's too small for you. This doesn't mean as much to you. I don't think you should probably do it." She's like "I really want to do it, because I want to do it for my clients in the future, so I want to have gone through it myself."
So fast-forward about a year into it and the same thing happened - she went from real estate to stock market. The stock market's doing this, she's not liking it... I'm like "It's probably best that you just end it." The money ended up being about even, so she didn't really lose any money on it... But she paid her tax. And so I would say those are probably the two things I've seen go wrong.
But as far as legal - perfect track record; thousands of closes over [unintelligible 00:27:24.06] IRS audits; most of the deals in California. There's lifetime audit defense provided, we work with your CPA... We also work on a conditional basis; we can also save a failing 1031 Exchange. You can work with us to have this us as a backup plan in case your exchange fails. So we're here to make it as easily and as clear as possible, and also give you lots of opportunities to get out before it actually closes... But once you do close, we get paid.
Slocomb Reed: Brett, you were saying that deployment of the capital on DST requires both the creditor's approval and your approval as trustee. When have you disagreed with the creditor about when/how/where the capital should be deployed?
Brett Swarts: Yeah, some of these hypotheticals, like "Hey, I want to put it all in Bitcoin."
Slocomb Reed: Yeah, I get that. I'm asking for tangible examples; specifically, when have you not approved of things that the creditor wanted to do?
Brett Swarts: Nothing really comes to mind per se. I'd say most of my clients are all sophisticated. They're all accredited investors, they're all really smart... And it's a team approach. I think it's more we recommend and they typically always take our recommendations, where they say, "Hey, I want to put this much percentage into this one deal." And we would say, "I don't agree. I think that's over-concentrating. I think that's too much of a percentage. Would you consider a less of a percentage into that deal?" And they go, "Yeah, okay, that makes sense", and I explain it to them. So it's not so much the investments particularly, it's more so what percentage of the total AUM goes into that one particular investment.
Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. In lieu of a Best Ever Lightning Round, I'm going to lightning-round myself here and see if I can summarize everything I've learned over the last 30 minutes... So Brett, assuming that I'm going to sell an asset that is going to lead to a gain of over a million dollars, one of the things that I can do instead of receiving that gain and having a taxable event is I can create a deferred sales trust, DST, with a company like Capital Gains Tax Solutions.
I become a lender to the trust, effectively lending the trust my proceeds from the sale of the asset, so that my gains of capital are going to the trust instead of to me. We establish a lender and borrower relationship, in which payments of at least interest are required to be made to me as the lender, and then the DST has my capital, that it can deploy into future investments. Requiring my approval as a creditor, but also your approval as the trustee, which it sounds like you almost always share, you almost always give, with your clients, the creditors, when they also approve. The investing options also include a creditor, or me in this example, joint venturing with the trust to form a new company that the trust funds, like a capital bringing joint venture partner, so that the funds are being deployed into my own business or investment initiatives that I then control as the operator executive member of the new LLC, the new company. That being said, I still have to treat the trust like a capital bringing a joint venture partner where they are going to get their capital back eventually, and likely with some sort of preferred return or interest that would likely eventually then be returned to me, the creditor, to the trust, in the form of interest payments. That continues until either I pull my capital out of the DST and pay the capital gains tax on it that would have originally been owed, or I die, and depending on how it was structured, there are a handful of ways that the taxability of that capital is handled. Is that a fair summary?
Brett Swarts: Precisely. You did an amazing job. I wouldn't edit anything that you just said. Great job, Mr. Reed.
Slocomb Reed: Well, I appreciate that. And unfortunately, it is time for us to wrap. Thank you, Brett. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this episode today, please do subscribe to our show. Leave us a five star review and share this episode with a friend so that we can add value to them as well. Thank you, and have a Best Ever day.
Brett Swarts: Bye, everybody.
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