U.S. Air Force Veteran Rich Neuharth rented and rehabbed 80 single-family homes before making the switch to multifamily syndications two years ago. Today, he co-owns and handles acquisitions for Aviana Capital Group, a private real estate investment firm focused on multifamily. In this episode, Rich tells us what drew him to apartment syndications, how he’s seen Covid impact landlord/tenant relationships, and how the current economic and political climate has affected his approach to debt.
1. Motivation for Switching from Single-Family Investing to Apartment Syndications
Rich says he is always looking to learn something new, and he was fascinated when he learned about syndications. “You could take this one concept and you could buy anything,” he says. “Syndication goes through all different asset classes, and so it had me right there. I was like, ‘I got to learn that.’” He was also drawn to multifamily because it operates more like a business compared to single-family investing, and he liked the idea of being able to help others through value-add projects.
2. How Covid Impacted Landlord/Tenant Relationships
Two years after the onset of the pandemic, Rich says he’s still seeing the effects when it comes to his properties in the Texas and Georgia markets. Tenants are still struggling to get back on track after job losses, and while state-provided assistance is available, it’s often up to property owners to educate tenants on how to obtain assistance.
He says Covid is also still affecting the due diligence process for him and his team. “I was just doing due diligence on a project we’re working on in an apartment complex, and we weren’t able to view four or five of the units because the tenants are telling us they have Covid,” he says. “It provides kind of a unique dynamic. You have to be able to pivot.”
3. How the Current Economic and Political Climate Is Affecting His Approach to Debt
“The debt right now, as my mentor and KP says, is ‘weird,’” Rich says.
Even more than interest rates, he has noticed that leverage is changing. Lenders are cutting back on how much they will put out for each project. For example, although he initially got quoted for 80% debt, he says it’s now a struggle to even get 70%. “That makes a huge difference in your underwriting on your returns to your investors … so you have to be very fluid in your underwriting,” he says.
Rich Neuharth | Real Estate Background
- Co-owner/acquisitions at Aviana Capital Group, a private real estate investment firm that focuses on multifamily.
- Portfolio: GP of 600+ units
- Works full-time as an air traffic control specialist
- Based in: Denton, TX
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: The Virgin Way by Richard Branson
- Greatest lesson: Stay humble or be humbled.
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TRANSCRIPT
Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I'm Slocomb Reed and I'm here with Rich Neuharth. Rich is joining us from Denton, Texas. He is the co-owner and acquisition specialist with Aviana Capital Group, a private real estate investment firm that focuses on multifamily. They are GPs of 600+ units. He also works full-time as an air traffic control specialist. Rich, can you start us off with a little more about your background and what you're currently focused on?
Rich Neuharth: Sure. I am a six-year US Air Force veteran where I was an air traffic controller stationed in Las Vegas, Nevada. Short tour to Iraq for six months, came back, got out, joined the FAA, decided that wasn't quite enough, and started looking into real estate, and moving on it full-time before I knew it. Single-family initially, and then we moved into apartment complexes in 2018.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. So single families for rentals?
Rich Neuharth: Correct.
Slocomb Reed: And then multifamily... Is that the classic you bought a single and then you bought a duplex and then a fourplex that grew from there?
Rich Neuharth: No, I started buying, renting, rehabbing, and we did about 80 single-family homes that I was managing until about two years ago, and then we sold off...
Slocomb Reed: 80?
Rich Neuharth: Yeah.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. 80 single-family homes, and then what did your jump to multifamily look like? Where did you go from there?
Rich Neuharth: It looked like joining a group, finding teammates, deciding what my niche in the area was going to be, because as you guys know, not everybody just does it all. It's very much a team sport. So I started raising capital, we started underwriting, because that's a very important aspect of it, and soon found that I really loved underwriting. And now, we focus solely on our own acquisitions.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. So when you say your own acquisitions, what do you mean?
Rich Neuharth: I mean that we go out, we find the property, we put the deal together, and then we build the teams.
Slocomb Reed: Okay, gotcha. Who's "we" in this case?
Rich Neuharth: I have a business partner. His name's Moses Lucero.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. So Rich and Moses, you go find the deals. That's why your bio has acquisitions in it, I guess. And then after you find the deal, you structure the general partnership to bring all the pieces together and then execute on the deal on the business plan, it sounds like.
Rich Neuharth: Correct.
Slocomb Reed: Nice. What parts of the country do you currently focus on, Rich?
Rich Neuharth: We love anywhere in the South-East, but we've focused down a little bit more. So Texas is a main market, Georgia, and we have recently moved into Indiana. There are parts of Indiana that we are starting to like.
Slocomb Reed: What parts of Indiana?
Rich Neuharth: Fort Wayne is one of them, Indianapolis is another. Let's say primarily those two right now is what we've looked at.
Slocomb Reed: Nice. Rich, I'm an apartment owner-operator in Cincinnati, so Indiana is right around the corner. Indianapolis is a market that I'll start looking into when my portfolio in Cincinnati is big enough that I feel like I've got it fully systematized and structured and I can put my focus elsewhere. But yeah, cool. So as many places as you're going, Rich, you said you were managing up to 80 single families yourself, until you sold those off. COVID has been a great time to be selling single families, so kudos to you for holding them long enough to get to a great seller's market and selling them. It sounds to me like you're bringing a lot of property management experience into your current apartment deals. Are you doing any of the management yourself? Are you involved in asset management?
Rich Neuharth: We do. Yes, we asset-manage the project.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. But being in Texas, looking all over the southeast and Indiana, you're hiring property managers?
Rich Neuharth: Correct. We hire out the third-party management.
Slocomb Reed: Nice. Have you gone full cycle and sold any of your syndications yet?
Rich Neuharth: We have not.
Slocomb Reed: Okay. When was your first acquisition?
Rich Neuharth: First acquisition was 2020.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. So, a couple of years now. Rich, tell us how having managed property yourself, albeit it's primarily or almost exclusively single families and now you're talking about syndication-sized apartment complexes - yes, of course, there are some nuances and differences there, but tell us how your experience as a property manager is informing the way that you do your asset management, now that you are overseeing property managers from a distance.
Rich Neuharth: I would say that there are always hard questions to ask. So there is quite a transition from single-family rental properties to the asset management side, but you're essentially just managing different types of people. So not only having a good team behind me to make sure that I am asking the right questions, but knowing -- during the heat of COVID, things got very complicated for single-family landlords, and it actually still is today.
Slocomb Reed: That's in Texas. All your stuff is local to you, or all of your single families were?
Rich Neuharth: Texas, Las Vegas, and then we have one property in Alaska.
Slocomb Reed: One property in Alaska, gotcha. Where did that come from?
Rich Neuharth: When I left the Air Force, we moved up there. We bought a house and then we just kept it as a rental property.
Slocomb Reed: Okay, gotcha. So accidental landlording. Gotcha. Cool. So it's mid-May 2022, and you said that single-family landlords are still having COVID-related issues in Texas?
Rich Neuharth: Yeah, I would say so.
Slocomb Reed: What does that look like?
Rich Neuharth: Well, for I'd say both single-family and multifamily. The single-family side of it is people are still struggling from the job loss and getting back to being employed. There's still state-provided assistance to these people, so there's a lot of education that has to go out there to make sure that they know which tools are available to them to help. I'd say that's the big one.
We also have -- where you run into both multifamily and single-family stuff is getting into the properties. I was just doing due diligence on a project - we're working on an apartment complex and we weren't able to view four or five of the units because tenants are telling us they have COVID, so they don't want us to enter those properties. It just provides a unique dynamic. You have to be able to pivot and be a little bit more fluid than pre-COVID.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. So I'm going to take a step back, Rich. I have a chip on my shoulder. I went to Emory University in Atlanta; it has nothing to do with this, except that one of my best friends from Emory - shoutout to Mark, if you're listening - is from Dallas. And I had to spend my entire college life hearing from Mark about how much better Texas was than Ohio.
And that didn't change after college either, because he moved back to Dallas and got into the business world, and he and some of my buddies from South Carolina kept talking about how all of the good businesses from the Rust Belt were going to their states and their MSAs. So shout out to Cincinnati and shout out to Ohio when it comes to this. I'll get to that in a second, but what is it specifically, that's still difficult for property managers in Texas? So what you said was they're still having COVID-related issues. And where my mind immediately goes, Rich, is that there's trouble with getting tenants evicted. Is it something else?
Rich Neuharth: I would say Texas - I don't think they're struggling with the evictions process anymore. We did for a while. We had quite a few tenants that we were trying to force out that we weren't able to in the heat of things, but I think it's just... When you're going to do due diligence in an apartment complex and you're trying to view and walk every single unit to determine the condition of it, and now you can't look at five of them, depending on the size of property you're looking at... If it's 100+, it's a small percentage of it. But if you're doing 50-75 units or 80 units, that is, I'd say, a decent-sized portion of the property that you can't view and take into consideration for it. That's just my most recent example. I don't think overall, in general, real estate is suffering from COVID like it was in 2020 and 2021, but it is still there. It has some lingering effects.
Slocomb Reed: Where do you guys have property in the South-East currently?
Rich Neuharth: We own two properties, or we're co-GPs on the West side of Atlanta. There are two other properties in Warner Robins, Georgia, and then we are currently under contract in Corpus Christi, Texas, and that will be our first Texas acquisition.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. But you have a lot of Texas experience with your single families. So Georgia, specifically Atlanta, and I have heard that there are still eviction moratorium issues in Atlanta for landlords. So let's do this... I don't want this to be the entire show, Rich, but I do want to take a couple of minutes on this.
Let's compare the areas that you're familiar with, Texas, Ohio - particularly Cincinnati, but generally Ohio and Atlanta, Georgia, in May of 2022, with regards to how the after-effects, iif we can call them after-effects, of COVID are playing out for our landlord-tenant relationships... The idea being those who are considering a variety of markets right now - I think this is a very important variable for them to understand. And Texas, Ohio, Georgia, Denton, Corpus Christi, Cincinnati, Atlanta - there's a breadth of Best Ever listeners who are considering investing in places like that, or in those individual MSAs.
So I'll start with Cincinnati... So our eviction moratorium has been up for quite a while. I don't remember exactly when it happened. I've been posting three-day notices and filing evictions for several months now. So courts are hearing evictions. It seems like, by now, the backlog has lifted. I just had a filing - we're about four weeks out from filing to hearing date, and it would have been two weeks before COVID, so there's still a bit of a drag there. However, if you look at the big picture of the landlord-tenant relationship and getting the tenant to pay rent, even though there are more jobs out there, the employment rate has gone back up, the unemployment rate down, a lot of those government agencies and non-government agencies are still doing rental subsidies. Just those one-off, cut a check for a tenant who can't pay their rent so they can stay in their place.
Right now, I'm doing paperwork for a tenant who was able to get March and April paid in May, but hasn't paid May, and a government-funded agency is going to pay their May rent, and June, July, and August. So it seems to me that the large need for programs like this has ended, but the assistance is still there. Which means that I as the landlord am still able to collect rent from tenants who don't have to be generating the income yet that they were pre-COVID.
So I can evict, but the tenant can also go get their assistance if necessary, and there is no statute or law, there is nothing in writing preventing me from accessing an apartment due to a tenant claiming to have COVID, aside from the typical 24 hours notice and any other general ramifications that there would be with a tenant refusing entry to their property manager or landlord. Does that sound like Texas to you, or is Texas different from that?
Rich Neuharth: No, it sounds exactly like that. Just like you said, there is the ability to evict, there are also the state or privately-funded programs to help people that are in those issues. There is nothing stopping us from going into an apartment complex, as far as I know, in Texas. However, it is tenant-based, so we don't want to intrude on them if we don't have to. So as long as it's not affecting business plans or renovations or something like that, we'll let the tenants have the say in that.
Slocomb Reed: Okay, cool. And what about Atlanta? Is it the same situation in Atlanta, or how is it different?
Rich Neuharth: So Atlanta is a little bit different. I can only speak to what I've heard from friends and other operators in the area, but it is county-specific. So there are some counties where there may be a backlog, or there may be a judge or something that is not handling the evictions like we would expect, and...
Slocomb Reed: Rich, if I can interject as well for those who are not familiar with Atlanta, there are a lot of counties. I said I went to school, I went to Emory in Atlanta, so I'm fairly familiar. Georgia has more counties than any other state because of the way they structured their state legislature a decade ago. There are a lot of different counties. So to hear that it is county by county in Atlanta means there's a lot of extra due diligence that needs to go into your underwriting if you're considering buying there, and you're considering how difficult it is now or may be in the future to handle landlord-tenant relationships and things like evictions if another crisis like COVID arises. So you're saying that there are still judges who just aren't willing to hear cases, or places where the backlog is so significant that it really just isn't practical to evict, but you're not having that experience yourself?
Rich Neuharth: No, we're not.
Slocomb Reed: Okay. Is that because you're in the right county? Okay, gotcha. So, which county is that?
Rich Neuharth: That's a good question. Off the top of my head, I can't think of it. So the property is located in East Point, so just west of downtown central Atlanta.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. Okay, cool. But even without having the details in front of you right now, you know you're in the right places. You're not having those issues. Would you call that B class, C class?
Rich Neuharth: C class.
Slocomb Reed: C class. Okay. I know C class is the only class where I've ever posted three days, but it's the only class we ever filed, and so that's where this conversation is the most prescient.
Break: [00:15:15] - [00:17:02]
Slocomb Reed: Rich, you got up to 80 single-family houses before deciding to make the shift. You can't get to 80 without doing a lot of things right, and making some pretty good money. Nonetheless, you decided to transition to syndicating multifamily. Why did you decide to make that decision? What is it about multifamily apartment syndication that was a better fit for you, your needs, wants, than continuing to build your own personal portfolio of single-families and maybe smaller apartments?
Rich Neuharth: I am always looking to learn something new. So when I learned about syndication, it was fascinating that you can take this one concept and you could buy anything. Syndication goes through all different asset classes, and so it had me right there. I was like, "I've got to learn that." And then you look at multifamily, where it's run more as a business, which I love owning and operating businesses, versus single-family; they're just not viewed the same. Even if you have a large portfolio, hundreds and hundreds of homes, it's never truly looked at the same, unless you're doing the commercial mortgage side of it. So both of those, combined with building teams.
I love having great people surrounding me or me being in the presence of great people. And single-family, I wasn't really getting that satisfaction either, so that triumvirate of those three skills to learn and do something new and something bigger, better... And you're able to affect more people. We go into some of these value-add properties that we go to and they're run down, and we're able to raise capital, learn what we need to do to satisfy our business plan and our own personal objectives, but to significantly improve the lifestyles of the tenants and the economy around that property as well.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense, for sure. And I totally get where you're coming from with learning something new. You're the first person I've ever asked who has said that one of the appeals to learning syndication is that it transcends asset classes, meaning that you can take what you learn in syndication out of real estate and do it with other things and with other businesses as well. That's definitely an appeal for sure, especially if you're the kind of person who loves learning and doing new things and trying new things.
Rich, based on my limited understanding, you as a GP, your income comes in bigger bursts, with longer droughts than it does when you are an owner-operating landlord. All of the rent, at least after the expenses, is yours. You have a solid monthly cash flow number that makes for a solid monthly personal budget. It sounds like you decided to sell all of the single families; I may have misunderstood you. But tell us about the transition to earning income as a multifamily GP by comparison to earning income as a single-family landlord.
Rich Neuharth: That is a good question. You're absolutely right. Obviously, as an owner-operator, you would know that feeling of the drought. I would say single-family is steady... When I first started single-family, I was looking at it like a savings account or bank account. I could always sell one of them and take those proceeds and pay for a kid's college or something like that. But the acquisition fees, the equity splits and stuff like that - I look at that as an investment in a different kind of future. That's an investment in our business, and being able to help other investors that come to us looking for these type of alternative means of investing or saving for themselves. So I think I answered your question.
Slocomb Reed: That makes sense. Tell us more about your most recent acquisition. You said you're about to close in Corpus Christi?
Rich Neuharth: We are under contract. We're about halfway through the process right now.
Slocomb Reed: Halfway through the process. Give us the big picture of this deal and Corpus Christi.
Rich Neuharth: Sure. So workforce housing, late '60s build, located in one of the most prestigious areas of Corpus Christi. It's right off of Ocean Drive. You've got a view of the ocean, you're surrounded by retail, entertainment, major employers, and it's been locally owned and operated for a long time.
Slocomb Reed: Is this an A location, a B location?
Rich Neuharth: Definitely an A location.
Slocomb Reed: Okay. But workforce housing.
Rich Neuharth: Yeah.
Slocomb Reed: Okay. When I think of locations like that, my mind goes to young professionals, first or second apartment out of college. That's not necessarily what people mean when they say workforce housing. Well, let me ask - whatever you can share given you're still under contract - purchase price, or ballpark unit count, and what's the play here?
Rich Neuharth: About 150+ units, 160 units, across two properties. So they are a little bit smaller, but they're situated very close to each other. Purchase price is $94,000 a door, and quite a bit less than what the competition is selling for around the area. The business plan is go in, update both stuff in and the exterior, take care of deferred maintenance, updated interiors is needed.
Corpus Christi, it's not DFW, it's not Atlanta where you go in and do granite and that type of stuff. Even on your nice-nice properties, your class A stuff, they're not doing stone and stuff like that. We just want to update it, we want to improve the tenant base a little bit, and move from lower-income tenants to mid-range tenants, and then add some amenities just to make it more appealing to the local population.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. What's the targeted hold period here?
Rich Neuharth: Five to seven years is generally our hold period. We're looking at about six right now.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. This sounds like a steak and potatoes, a value-add apartment deal. Rich, when did you get it under contract?
Rich Neuharth: It would have been... Let me figure out what month we're in. May? So April.
Slocomb Reed: Okay. So this episode will air, let's call it, three weeks from now. And I imagine three weeks from now we'll still be talking about inflation, we'll still be talking about Russia and Ukraine, we'll be saying something about China, and we'll be talking about supply chain and interest rates... The stock market will be doing something worth mentioning, and a lot of these things are leading to uncertainty and certainly higher interest rates. So specific to the debt you're looking to put on this property, is anything about the current economic and political situation we find ourselves in impacting the way you look at the debt that you're going to get for the purchase of this property?
Rich Neuharth: Absolutely. The debt right now, as my mentor and KP says, is weird. There are a lot of different opportunities and a lot of different risk levels coming from the lenders. So when we started this project, let's say early April, to two weeks ago, when everything started shifting, the lending side has been drastic. We've seen people start pushing away from bridge debt a little bit, some of your institutional loans...
Slocomb Reed: Yeah, totally.
Rich Neuharth: Your variable interest rates. I don't personally recommend those, but I know people are still doing them. We see deals closing out of that, but it's not something we trust. And more so than your interest rates, we're seeing leverage change. So when your lenders start getting worried about the market and what it's going to do, they want to cut back on how much they will actually put out there for each project. So when we initially got quoted, 80% debt was cakewalk. Our brokers said 80% all day long. Now, we're struggling to get 70%.
So you can see, that makes a huge difference in your underwriting, on your returns to your investors and stuff like that, so you have to be very fluid in your underwriting... And a lot of things have changed just in the last two weeks. "It's a very interesting market" might be an understatement.
Slocomb Reed: Yes. And everyone who's in the game, the "men in the arena", know exactly what you're feeling, and that's not a gender term, it's a reference to Teddy Roosevelt and his famous speech. Let's put it this way. Your first multifamily acquisitions were in 2020; compare the terms that you wanted in 2020, when you were doing deals then, to the terms that you want now. Now, I don't mean dream scenario, how has the dream scenario changed, but how has the debt you were most interested in that was available from then to now changed? Are you looking for longer terms? Are you less worried about making sure you have a rock bottom rate? Is the loan to value less or more important now? Those kinds of things.
Rich Neuharth: Good question. I would say two years ago we did want the lowest rate. I think it was big on most everybody's play. "Hey, no. That's a 3.75. That's trash. I don't want that."
Slocomb Reed: Right? [laughter] Yeah, totally.
Rich Neuharth: Now, I think it's getting creative. So bridge debt has controlled the market for the last three to five years. And they still do, but I feel a change coming on. I've talked to other operators... A group just financed the deal through a life insurance company. They got 65% LTV with a low four interest rate, because that was the best rate that they can find. But the 65% - that's hard to swallow unless you're institutional. I think now, 75% is the best case, 4.5%, 5% is probably a good interest rate.
Slocomb Reed: Are you targeting longer-term? Let me put it this way... In 2020, when you targeted a five to seven-year hold period, getting a seven-year term on your mortgage made sense. And I'm not saying that you did that. I'm just saying that there were a lot of people on a five to seven-year hold; a five-year term to lower the interest rate made more sense then than it may make for some people now.
So now - yes, your LTV might be a little lower, you're bringing a little more equity to the table, or you're having to buy a little more equity when you purchase. Are you extending the terms of the mortgages that you are buying, or are you shortening them because the interest rates are higher, and you're projecting change in the next few years?
Rich Neuharth: To me, personally, I want the longest debt, hopefully fixed, that I can get. Your interest rate hikes - they generally last two years, no more than three. I think you could still probably do a seven and be comfortable. However, I want 10 at a minimum to make sure that I can ride through whatever happens. Does that answer?
Slocomb Reed: It did. Last thing, are you seeing any interest-only terms available? Interest-only for a year or two at the beginning of the note? Are you seeing any of that right now?
Rich Neuharth: Yeah, we still see some.
Slocomb Reed: Is that important to you right now?
Rich Neuharth: No, not as much as it was a year ago.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. I'm still going after the interest-only whenever I can get it, but I also tend to purchase assets that are experiencing more distress. So having a couple of years of interest only without paying down any principal is really helpful, because it flattens some of the waves, as it were. Rich, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Rich Neuharth: Let's do it.
Slocomb Reed: Excellent. What is the Best Ever book you've recently read?
Rich Neuharth: The Virgin Way by Richard Branson.
Slocomb Reed: He's got some fun books, doesn't he?
Rich Neuharth: He does.
Slocomb Reed: What is your Best Ever way to give back?
Rich Neuharth: We love giving back to the community. We're part of the Chamber of Commerce. We also use quite a high percentage of our proceeds from all real estate to give back to local businesses.
Slocomb Reed: Nice. Rich, in your commercial investing career, what is the biggest mistake you've made and the Best Ever lesson you learned from it?
Rich Neuharth: I would say the biggest mistake I ever made was not looking for help sooner. And that lesson is ask early, ask often, and surround yourself--
Slocomb Reed: Give us an example. What was the scenario in which you should have asked for help but didn't?
Rich Neuharth: I started looking at commercial multifamily in 2018 and decided that I would do it on my own, and we spent a lot of time just--
Slocomb Reed: And your first acquisition was 2020?
Rich Neuharth: Yeah. So you can see, it takes a team.
Slocomb Reed: Yeah, go get a team, focus on your specialties. Let them focus on theirs, and make sure that you're doing a good job choosing a partner. Rich, what is your Best Ever advice?
Rich Neuharth: My Best Ever advice - I love "stay humble or be humbled."
Slocomb Reed: Awesome. And Rich, where can people get in touch with you?
Rich Neuharth: So I'm on LinkedIn. I'm the only Richard Neuharth that I've ever been able to find on LinkedIn. Our website is avianacapgroup.com. My personal email, if anybody wants to go direct, is rich@avianaco.com.
Slocomb Reed: Awesome. Those links are available in the show notes as well. Rich, thank you very much, and Best Ever listeners, thank you too for tuning in. If you've gained value from this conversation, please subscribe to our show. Leave us a five-star review and share this with a friend who we can add value to through this conversation about the current market climate, how it's affecting landlord-tenant relationships, and debt structuring, and the apartment deals and markets that we're focused on. Thank you and have a Best Ever day.
Rich Neuharth: Thanks, Slocomb. Thanks, everybody.
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