Zach Haptonstall is the CEO and co-founder of Rise48 Equity, a real estate investment services firm that focuses on multifamily syndication. In this episode, Zach discusses why Rise48 continues to underwrite five to ten deals a week despite only penciling a fraction of them and how his company was able to build a $1.4 billion portfolio by controlling various aspects of the value-add supply chain.
Zach Haptonstall | Real Estate Background
- CEO and co-founder of Rise48 Equity
- $1.4B in AUM
- Based in: Phoenix, AZ
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: Mastery by Robert Greene
- Greatest Lesson: If you as the owner will not be doing this, you need to hire someone who is going to source, bid out, and manage all of your subcontractors. You have to be able to adequately manage your construction process.
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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed, and I'm today here with Zach Haptonstall, a returning guest. He's been on the podcast multiple times. He's based in Phoenix, Arizona. He's CEO and co-founder of Rise48 Equity, which has been quite busy since the last time he was on the podcast. They're a real estate investment services firm that focuses on multifamily syndication, and their current portfolio is now at 1.4 billion in assets under management. Zach, can you tell us a little bit more about what you've had going on this past year?
Zach Haptonstall: Yeah. Thanks so much, Slocomb. Really happy to be here. Thanks for having us on. And yeah, I mean, it's obviously been an eventful year for everybody in real estate. We're recording this here in May of 2023. Obviously, the Fed has made several aggressive rate hikes since March of 2022, so operationally, the focus has been continue to renovate units, and we've been increasing the velocity of our renovations, so that we can continue to push rents and push NOI. So we've been in a great position operationally, we've been fortunate, we've never done a capital call, we don't plan to do any this year, or next year, or beyond. So really focused on operations, infrastructure, and then we're still seeing opportunities. We bought several deals this year, in 2023, and we're finding good opportunities out there. So just kind of making sure we're mitigating against interest rate risk, and still looking for good deals out there.
Slocomb Reed: Tell us about the good opportunities you've been finding in the past few months.
Zach Haptonstall: So I guess we're recording this in May... By the end of May, we'll have bought five deals this year; a deal a month. We have another one closing in June. We'v recently expanded to the Dallas, Texas market. So we've been traditionally focused on Phoenix; now it's Dallas and Phoenix going forward. And all of the Dallas deals we've acquired so far, the common theme there, Slocomb, is that there is some type of distress with the seller and their lender. And what I mean by that is all three of them either had an interest rate cap that was coming up to expire, or an actual loan term, a balloon payment on a loan was coming up to expire on one of them, so they had to sell the deal just to get out of it before this impending deadline were to come up.
And the reality is, is that values for real estate are down at least 20% to 30% from where they were first half of last year. So most sellers are not selling unless they need to. We don't expect to sell a deal all year; we're not going to give a buyer a discount just to sell a deal on the short-term. But as a buyer, if we can find some of these distressed opportunities, we can get these deals at a really good basis, and there's not a lot of competition right now, especially with institutional equity. And so some of the deals that we've been seeing are value-add deals, like we always do, where they've got some type of loan distress coming up and they need to get out of the deal.
Slocomb Reed: Outside of the financial or future financing distress that sellers are going to experience, making them more willing to sell at terms you're willing to take. What else is it that you're looking for in a property and in an opportunity right now?
Zach Haptonstall: Our criteria has remained the same. So we really focus on B class assets, so 1980s vintage properties, at least 100+ units; workforce housing demographic. And we've adjusted our underwriting assumptions to adapt to the current economic climate. So since summer of 2022, we're assuming 0% organic rent growth in year one for every deal in Dallas and Phoenix, and we've really shaved down the organic rent growth assumptions for the five-year average as well. These are a needle in the haystack, these deals to pencil.
As an example, Slocomb, we have a deal tracker, and we started underwriting deals in Dallas in November of 2022. We've underwritten over 120 different properties since November. So in the last six, seven months only four of them have actually penciled and made sense in our stress test. So what we need is we personally secret-shop the comps for every single deal that we look at. So we look at what are renovated units in the immediate area achieving right now; in order for these deals to work for us, a common theme to answer your question, there needs to be a significant delta where the in-place rents at the property we're looking at need to be well below, not only the renovated rents for those other properties nearby, but the classic units need to have a lot of loss-to-lease in place. That their rents are well below what other classic units are currently achieving; we need to be able to get a big push there, because we cannot assume in our underwriting model very strong organic rent growth. And 0% in year one
So we need to say -- we're not trying to reinvent the wheel here; we're gonna buy this deal, renovate units, burn off loss-to-lease, and we're just bringing rents right up to market with where everybody else in that immediate market is achieving right now. And if we can find that, then we can move forward to follow the other underwriting assumptions make sense, and we can get it at a price that makes sense. But that's very difficult to find. Right now, it's a 3% hit rate on a deal that might pencil for underwriting.
Slocomb Reed: I'm hearing you describe is effectively a numbers game. How does Rise48 find good opportunities worth acquiring in Q2 2023? The answer is underwrite everything. If you have to analyze 33 deals for every one that pencils, then you better analyze 99, 100 deals to find three. Does that really summarize it?
Zach Haptonstall: 100%. Yeah, it's a volume game. It's a grind, honestly. So all of our deals, Slocomb, come through broker relationships. We don't go direct to seller, or anything like that. Not to say you can't be successful. I'm sure people have done it. It's just for us it seems most efficient to go through brokers. So in Phoenix, for example, there's five or six brokers who control 90% of the inventory. They control everything. And we built relationships with these guys the last several years; most of our deals have been off market. Well, last year I called all the Phoenix brokers that I know and I said, "Hey, we're going to Dallas. Can you refer me to your top guys in Dallas?" In Dallas, seven or eight guys... These are all the same firms, Slocomb. CBRE, Marcus & Millichap, North Mark, Arcadia, JLL... So they referred us to all their top guys in Dallas, and it was kind of cool that we were endorsed and met all these guys; instantly started getting a lot of off market deal flow.
So we're getting constant deal flow... I'm calling these brokers every single week, on the phone with these guys, staying in touch... We have our acquisitions manager, Brady, we have [unintelligible 00:08:13.28] our CFO, and we've just hired another analyst, because we were getting so much volume of deal flow... And most of it is not even close, by the way. Most of these deals are not even close to what we can get to. So to answer your question, it's just volume.
So the difference between now and the last few years, Slocomb, is the last few years, when the market was strong, there was a lot of deal flow, and there was a lot of competition. Now, deal flow is much slower than it has been, but the competition is also a lot less. So it's a needle in a haystack regardless, it's a volume game, and it's tedious, because we shot these comps for every single deal that we underwrite, let alone make an offer on. So it's a grind, and we have to have our asset management team involved every deal... And we're dealing at least 5 to 10 deals a week minimum that we're underwriting. So yeah, you've just got to crank through them and try to find what makes sense.
Slocomb Reed: One more question, and then I want to transition this conversation, Zach. What is the property size that you all target?
Zach Haptonstall: In Phoenix, we want to be at least 100+ units. In Dallas, ideally we like to be at least 150, 200+ units. So that's the minimum, 100+ units minimum. This is a good question, Slocomb, because this has actually changed as far as purchase price-wise. Last year in Phoenix we bought deals from 15 million all the way up to $142 million deals, and we got a $125 million deal. We were buying very large deals; you could raise $30 million of equity and go buy $100 million deal, because of where the interest rates were at, debt service coverage ratio, things like that. Now, you have to raise significantly more equity in order to buy a deal. And that's because you have less leverage, so you have bigger down payments... And we've always been a low-leverage group, which is why we're in good shape; 60% to 70% loan to value. But we're raising a lot more cash reserves up front, we're buying these interest rate caps to protect against mitigating interest rate risks, which is very expensive...
So right now, in this moment of time, we feel very comfortable between $20 to $50 million purchase price, because if it's a $40 million purchase price, we're having to raise minimum $20 to $25 million of equity. So basically, the ratios have really changed. We now have to raise around 60%, 65% of the equity relative to the purchase price; before, that was 35%-40% for all of our reserves, and everything like that. So that's our sweet spot, is that value-add $20 to $40 million space right now.
Slocomb Reed: The reason behind my question, Zach - that $20 to $40 million space, there are a lot of apartment syndicators who are playing in that space or who want to and are making the attempt. You're explaining a process of analyzing deals that requires a lot of resources, a lot of legwork. How do you quantify how much effort Rise48 puts into analyzing deals pre-LOI?
Zach Haptonstall: Good question. We'll do an initial pass on the deal and see if it's even relatively close; if we're not even relatively close to what the seller wants, then we're going to type out a summary email, give it to the broker, and just say, "Hey, this is where we're coming in, and we're not going to spend extra time to dial it in." But if we are getting close, then we're going to spend extra time to really call our debt brokers, our lenders, dial in the debt terms... And we're using conservative estimates on the front end, which we know we can hit. But if we want to be close, let's get really detailed, let's get really granular. And then we'll make sure that we're double-checking with our asset management team. "You [unintelligible 00:11:41.00] these comps. Do you think we can get these rents?" Things like that.
So yeah, you don't want to spend too much time on each deal if you're not even close... But it's a volume game, and we've lost a ton of deals to other buyers in the last several years. We always lose deals, because like you said, it's a competitive space, and most of the time, people are willing to pay more money than us... It's just tough to make these deals work in our stress test.
But there's a couple things we've done to gain advantages, Slocomb. For example, we've purchased 42 deals, we're 42 for 42. We've never fallen out of contract. Every time we go under contract, we close the deal. We also are pretty aggressive with our terms. And I don't mean purchase price, I mean our earnest money and our due diligence period. Even right now, we're going non-refundable day one with our earnest money. We just closed the deal a few weeks ago, about a $50 million deal in Dallas, and I signed the contract, I wired a million bucks to escrow, non-refundable, immediately, and we released it to the seller. We said "Okay, escrow, release this to the seller." He can go use it for however he wants. And if we don't close, we lose a million bucks. And it's our personal cash. But we felt comfortable that we could perform. And on the front end, we're underwriting, Slocomb, we will model in a doomsday scenario, where we say "Okay, we're gonna budget to replace roofs, plumbing, electrical, everything", so that we feel confident going nonrefundable day one, so that we can repair everything. 98% of the time what happens is we go under contract, we start due diligence, and we're actually trimming back that CapEx budget, because it wasn't as bad as what we assumed. So we're typically doing 10-day due diligence periods, which is more than enough time for all of our staff to get in there. And then we go nonrefundable day one. That sends a message to the brokers and to the sellers that we're serious and that we perform. We do all the management in-house, we've got 220 plus employees, we sign the loan ourselves, we raise all the money, we use our own personal cash. So we have no master, so to speak.
We've won deals, Slocomb, marketed deals that we're not even the highest offer, just because of track record and credibility with the broker and the seller. So those are some of the things that you can do once you start buying deals and get relationships with these brokers.
Slocomb Reed: Zach, you were one of the keynote speakers at the Best Ever conference a couple months ago now. For the audience listening now, can you recap what that talk was about?
Zach Haptonstall: Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, I'm not just saying this... That literally was the best ever conference I've been to. It was legitimately -- we only decided to be a platinum sponsor three or four weeks before it, and the team there, the whole Best Ever team had everything set up, it was awesome. We got great value out of of that sponsorship. And we go to all these sponsorships, a lot of [unintelligible 00:14:10.18] conferences.
But basically, it was just about the history of our company and how we got started. I don't have any background in real estate, I had to quit my job, live off of savings, and we scaled from nothing, with no relationships, to now doing 1.8 billion in transactions. We've bought 42 deals, sold eleven deals, we have a property manager company in-house, construction management, 220 plus full-time W-2 employees on full benefits... And so it was just kind of how we got through the initial adversity and struggles. And by "we", I mean my partners, Vikran, Robert and myself, how we met, bought the first deal, how I had to go back and get a job because I was broke after we owned millions of dollars of real estate... And just go through that grind, and then how we would encounter challenges where we're using third party property management initially, and that wasn't working, so we had to bring construction management in-house, property management in-house, build that infrastructure, scale the business... And so it was a good talk. I feel like we could bring value to a lot of the attendees at the conference, kind of show them where we've gotten to today, how we've gotten there.
And then also, at the end, Slocomb, we talked about our approach in this current high interest rate environment; what are we doing operationally with existing assets, as far as rapidly increasing the velocity of renovations to maximize NOI, so we can refinance out of these loans without having to rely on interest rates coming down... And then also, what are we doing for new acquisitions? Are we looking for active? Because most people are not active. So we kind of touched on all those different topics.
Slocomb Reed: Remind me, when is it that you got started in commercial real estate.
Zach Haptonstall: I quit my job, January of 2018. I lived off of savings for over a year, to figure out how to get into multifamily, and bought the first deal February of 2019. So it took 14 months of just full-time going at this to buy the first deal. And we did not syndicate it; a handful of us put down our own money to buy this 36-unit three and a half million dollar deal. Learned how to operate these deals, really get a sense of value-add business plans, and then we started syndicating and raising money from passive investors. And so the first two and a half, three years, Slocomb, we made no money. And then we started to really hit that inflection point where we were actually in the business plan, selling deals... So we were getting good results for investors, which was attracting more investors... We were really getting those relationships established with the brokers, so we could start sourcing off market deals, and then we started charging acquisition fees at the deal level, which generates revenue to build out infrastructure and hire staff. So that was the timeline for us, was January 2018 was when we started, and now it's been a little over five years.
Slocomb Reed: You've gone full-cycle on 11 deals?
Zach Haptonstall: Correct. We've successfully executed the plan, gone full cycle, and sold 11 of these deals so far. We also like to utilize a 1031 exchange. So of those 11 deals, we've done seven 1031 exchanges. So I know that's kind of unique. Not a lot of people do that. And the other four deals we didn't do were earlier deals and we honestly weren't thinking of it. But the plan going forward is to try and 1031 exchange every single deal. Our investors have the option; if they want to participate, they can participate in the exchange to further capital gains tax, or they can cash out and get out of the deal. So that's been our strategy.
Slocomb Reed: Has your business plan changed with the deals that you're currently acquiring? Are you planning for a longer hold period, or any other changes?
Zach Haptonstall: Good question, Slocomb. So no, the business plan has not changed at all. Ever since we've started, for every deal that we've ever underwritten and purchased since day one, it's always a five-year model with a stress test built in there. And the stress test assumes that right after we buy the deal, there will immediately be some type of significant economic downturn or recession that hits, where the organic rent growth in the market will plummet immediately and decrease significantly and stay there for five consecutive years. Vacancy will increase immediately, stay there for five consecutive years. Now, even with that downturn, we hold through the recession, execute the business plan by renovating 100% of the units, and sell in year five to achieve the returns we're projecting to investors. That's always been the business plan and the stress test, ever since day one.
What's happened in reality, Slocomb, in the last several years - I'm sure you've seen this from several operators - is that we'll buy a deal, we'll blow through 20% to 50% of the interior innovations in the first year, and then we intentionally stop renovating early. We hit the brakes, so that we can leave "meat on the bone" for the next guy. We've proven out the concept, leave classic units for the next guy, and then we can sell the deal early at a lower cap rate and open up our buyer pool to more value-add buyers. That's what we've been doing in reality. But we've always budgeted and been ready to renovate all the units and hold it a little bit longer. So I've been telling investors now - I think our average hold period across the 11 deals that we've sold has been about 18 months. These have been homeruns for investors.
I've been telling investors more than a year now, since interest rates started aggressively getting increased, I'm saying "Don't expect those types of returns in 18 to 24 months." We never projected that initially, and we'll take it while we can get it... But as interest rates have just skyrocketed - the Fed has increased them now I think 500 basis points or so in the last 12 to 14 months... Interest rates are higher, so debt is more expensive, which means buyers have less purchasing power; organic rent growth across the country has decelerated significantly and normalized. For those two reasons, it's going to take a little bit longer to hit these target exit valuations and target returns for investors.
So it's always been a five-year conservative model. So yeah, we haven't given the expectations -- it's going to be longer hold periods; we still feel very confident we can hit, if not exceed our initial projections... But now we're putting that stress test to the test, so to speak. So longer hold periods... As far as the business plan, we've always been prepared to renovate all the units. And now what we're doing, Slocomb, is we're rapidly increasing the velocity of renovations across the portfolio.
In 2022, we were renovating between 50 to 100 units a month across the portfolio, and we weren't going full speed; we didn't need to. Well, in 2023 we decided "Let's really crank up the velocity of renovations, so that we can really maximize the rents and the NOI." Because organic rent growth is gone. You cannot align organic rent growth to increase rents. And the only way you can increase rents is to renovate units on schedule, on budget, provide a higher-quality interior finish for the tenant, the resident, so that they'll pay a higher rent. And we've been fortunate, we're having no issues hitting and exceeding our pro forma rents across the entire portfolio.
We've already renovated over 700+ units this year in 2023, more than we renovated all of last year. We're cranking it up drastically. Every single unit is hitting or exceeding our proforma rent. The renovated units are actually moving faster and are more attractive than the classic units. And we do a very high level interior scope; truly like a Class A interior scope: stainless steel appliances, quartz countertops, brand new cabinet boxes, etc.
So it's the same business plan, Slocomb, but now it's increased the velocity of renovation, so that we can renovate 90% to 100% of these units before those three-year interest rate caps come up to expire. So this is why we're in good shape right now. We have never done a capital call, like I said; don't plan to do any in the next few years or beyond, because we have low-leverage loans, three-year interest rate caps, plenty of cash reserves, and we have the infrastructure to be able to renovate these units on schedule, on budget, push the NOI by having property management in-house, construction management in-house, and controlling our supply chain completely by purchasing all the materials directly wholesale from an overseas supplier.
So we feel fortunate we've built the infrastructure before this economic downturn and interest rate hikes came, because we were already prepared to weather the storm.
Slocomb Reed: Zach, I feel like there has been a theme running through this conversation that I don't want to go unspoken. This may just be coming from my perspective; please comment on this... But it feels like a lot of what we've discussed right now is the benefit of scale. And of course, it was just a handful of years ago that you were acquiring your first deal, but you got to scale quickly, and getting to scale quickly put you in the position where you could buy materials direct from overseas wholesalers and bring construction management and property management in-house, and have that level of control over the process and have the resources at your disposal to be able to do the level of analysis you're doing on deals, to find the four out of 120 that actually pencil out. Does this resonate with you?
Zach Haptonstall: 100%. I think you said it very well, Slocomb, is that scale is critical. Even the most entry-level investors, when you're listening to podcasts like Best Ever and learning about multifamily, you learn about the benefits of economies of scale. And it's realistic and relevant in any industry, especially in multifamily. And so you're exactly right. Because we were fortunate to be able to quickly scale and acquire a lot of units, it gives us revenue, so that we can afford to hire a lot of staff. And as far as our supply chain goes, because we have so much volume that we're personally -- I'm pretty confident we're renovating more units per month than anybody in the state of Arizona, I have no doubt about that. I mean, I don't have data to support it, but my point in saying that is because we have so much volume, it gives us a ton of leverage and purchasing power with our supplier. We're buying hundreds of units' worth of materials months in advance, at locked in, fixed prices. We have not had to worry about any supply chain issues the last three years; even in 2021, after COVID, when people couldn't get stainless steel appliances, and they couldn't get different things, we didn't have those issues, because we're buying things months in advance, directly wholesale from an overseas manufacturer. And we're getting it at fixed costs, so we always hit our budget.
And then talking about property management - property management is great to bring in-house, but it's a beast of an undertaking. We invested over 800k of our own personal cash into that company; it took about 10 months to break even. If you don't have at least 2,000 units or so, it typically doesn't make sense. So again, it goes back to what you said, Slocomb, you have to have scale in order to be able to support a property management company. And when you have the property management company, it gives you more control, which allows you to get better operational results. And we have all these different advantages over our competition now.
The biggest thing is staffing, we started the property management company, because we were using third party management a few years ago, and we kept having turnover at our property level with the staff; they were just getting poached by other people, recruiting them, paying them more money. So our whole philosophy was let's start our own property management company, and we don't need to make a bunch of money off this property management company. To be honest with you, Slocomb, property management is a crappy business model. It's low profit margin. So our whole thing was "Let's just start this to have control; we just need to break even. Let's offer the most competitive compensation in the industry, the best of benefits, so that we can recruit and retain the very best talent, so that the operations are performing well, investors are happy, and then we can get good returns." And when we get investors good returns, we make 80% to 90% of our compensation through our GP promo, or our "sweat equity". When we sell a deal, and get strong returns; give the investors all their money back, plus their preferred return, and then go through those splits. That's when we make the bulk of our money, that's our high profit margin business.
So I think the scale is what allowed all these things, from being able to hire staff for every department, which, like you said, that [unintelligible 00:26:50.05] acquisition. If we didn't have scale, we wouldn't have enough revenue to be able to hire multiple people in our acquisitions department, to then go through more deals and analyze more deals. You just don't have enough manpower or bandwidth when you're smaller to take on all these things. And so we've been taking all of our profits, all of our fees, reinvesting into infrastructure, into our different companies here at Rise48, and that's just helped us to become stronger in every department. And that's the long-term goal, is just continue to build infrastructure, and keep getting stronger.
Slocomb Reed: Zach, I'm glad this conversation is an interview for a podcast, because there's no way I could have taken notes fast enough to write down all the things I'm going to want to remember from this conversation. I'll have a recording of it here soon that I can play as many times as I need to. Are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Zach Haptonstall: Let's do it, lightning round.
Slocomb Reed: What is the best ever book you've recently read?
Zach Haptonstall: Yeah, good question. So I'm reading it right now, I've read it before... It's called Mastery by Robert Greene. So it's a great book, it really talks about the whole concept you have to have 10,000 hours of work in one thing to master it, and it talks about some of the greatest minds in the history of civilization; they did not come from impressive backgrounds, but they just grinded it out for years and years. And in this current age that we live in, Slocomb, with social media, everybody wants our attention span, people don't want to be bored... They don't want to put in the work. It talks about the tedious nature you have to put in to be great at stuff. So Mastery, I recommend that book highly.
Slocomb Reed: What is your best ever way to give back?
Zach Haptonstall: We have a charitable organization at our company called Rise Up, Give back. So we've recently donated $35,000 to Phoenix Children's Hospital, a leading children's hospital here in Arizona, one of the biggest ones in the country, just in Q1. So we sponsor a lot of their events. And then we also donated and sponsored an event earlier this year for human trafficking, to stop human trafficking. So those are two of our big passions - our kids, human trafficking... And then we're also in talks with the Phoenix Police Department, we want to really support our local police department, make sure that they're well-funded, to keep the cities, the community safe, because that's very important to us, is to make sure our police departments are well-funded.
Slocomb Reed: Thus far, Zach, on the properties that you have acquired, what is the biggest mistake you've made, and the best ever lesson that resulted from it?
Zach Haptonstall: Good question. On the first handful of properties, the biggest mistake we made is that we trusted the third party property management company to run the construction management. So I'm not telling you that you need to start your own property manager company, because it's a big undertaking, and you have to have enough scale for it to make sense. But before we ever started property management, we took construction management in-house. And what does that mean? It doesn't mean you necessarily need to hire the laborer that's doing the renovations inside the units. It means that you as the owner need to hire people who are going to source and bid out and manage all of your subcontractors.
We were told by this third party property manager company that they could do all that, and they were terrible at it. And none of these subcontractors were staying on schedule or on budget. You fall behind. So I was having to go out to the property [unintelligible 00:29:54.19] these vendors, make sure they're doing what they're supposed to do. So making sure that when you're doing a value-add plan, you have to be able to manage that construction process of renovating these units on the interiors, the exterior amenities, CapEx, things like that.
So I would make sure that the best advice I can give, which was a mistake we made early on, is don't trust other people to run that process, whether it's you as the owner, or when you're starting out, or if you can get one person, one employee to really oversee these vendors and manage that process. You could use third party management along with that, but the construction management is really the first thing to focus on, in my opinion.
Slocomb Reed: That said, what is your best ever advice?
Zach Haptonstall: I think if you're trying to be an active sponsor in this, then I would say don't let anybody else tell you you can't do it. Don't take crap from anybody else... Because they're not going to put the work in that's necessary for you to achieve your goals. So I think you're going to [unintelligible 00:30:44.28] lot of people that think that it's not possible. I think if you're a passive investor, I think that when you're talking to people, ask them if they're doing capital calls, ask them what their infrastructure looks like to renovate units. Because if it's a value-add plan, you have to build or renovate units on schedule, on budget right now. Otherwise, you're in trouble. And that's just the reality of the situation across the country.
And so I think you need to look at infrastructure as a passive investor, look at track record, and ask these questions, because here's the cliche of like the tide going out. Well, now the tide is going out, and a lot of people are gonna get exposed operationally. And so you want to look and see how are you performing now and ask those questions if you're a passive investor.
Slocomb Reed: Where can people get in touch with you?
Zach Haptonstall: You can go to our website, rise48equity.com. You can actually set up a call with me if you're interested to learn about our investments on that website. You can also email me, Zach [at] rise48equity.com. Look forward to getting on a call with you, answer any questions, and connecting.
Slocomb Reed: Those links are in the show notes. Zach, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this episode, please do subscribe to our show. Leave us a five star review and share this episode with a friend you know we can add value to through our conversation today. Thank you, and have a best ever day.
Zach Haptonstall: Thanks so much, Slocomb.
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