May 26, 2023

JF3186: How to Bring Construction In-House from a Multifamily Contractor ft. Dax Ferguson



Dax Ferguson is the CEO at Heritage Construction and Consulting Services, which takes syndicators from due diligence to CapEx execution. In this episode, Dax discusses the technology platform he developed to help investors develop and present CapEx budgets, key factors investors should consider who are looking to bring construction management in-house, some of the biggest projects where he’s lost money.


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Dax Ferguson | Real Estate Background

  • CEO at Heritage Construction and Consulting Services
  • Based in: Dallas–Fort Worth, TX
  • Say hi to him at: 
  • Best Ever Book: Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins
  • Greatest Lesson: How to put a system in place to create speed without losing quality.


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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed, and today I'm here with Dax Ferguson. Dax is based in the Dallas, Fort Worth area. He's the CEO of Heritage Construction and Consulting Services, which takes syndicators from due diligence, to CapEx, execution. They operate nationwide, with minimal exceptions. Dax, can you tell us a little bit more about your background and what you and your company are currently focused on?

Dax Ferguson: Sure. So my background is kind of crazy the way that it led me here to multifamily, but I started right out of college building performing arts theaters. So I was a consultant, and helped design and build performing arts theaters, and that started my construction world. I went from that to home theaters and built some pretty high-end home theaters in Hollywood Hills and whatnot... And then started doing roofing, residential construction things, and then in 2015 switched over to multifamily, and been doing multifamily exclusively since 2015. And that started with exterior, and then went into interior. So that's kind of been my journey to where we are today, bringing me to where I have the knowledge of what we do here in multifamily.

Slocomb Reed: Why is it that in 2015 focusing exclusively on multifamily made the most sense for you?

Dax Ferguson: So I was looking for a way to scale my business, and I could only do so much in single-family, I could only scale so big, and I'd have to hire an immense amount of people to be able to scale to where I was looking to go. And then in multifamily, you could do 200 houses, if you will, in one spot. And so it made things a lot easier to scale, mobilize and get crews on the ground and manage them. So when we looked to make that switch, it made a lot of sense. And then every year since we've doubled or tripled, so it's been great for us.

Slocomb Reed: It's not often that I end up with this question, Dax, but construction and consulting, from due diligence to the completion of a capital expenditure business plan, almost nationwide with a few exceptions - what is it that you do?

Dax Ferguson: When we started in construction and doing this for multifamily, we kept getting asked "Will you do our due diligence? Will you do our due diligence?" And I'm of the belief if I can't do it better than anybody else out there, or have a different twist on it that helps the syndicators, I really probably should stay out of it. So in doing so and looking at what was out there and what was available, although it was good, I knew there was a way to do it better. So I developed a software that we go and take 50 or 60 pictures in every unit, we have three different categories - good, functional or needs replacement, and then when we say "needs replacement", what it's going to cost to replace that... So we do drone flyovers, but we also do 3D imaging of the exterior, so that gives you a full idea of what your exterior looks like currently, but also, you can change paint colors, roof colors and things of that nature, for those visual people that need to be able to see things, what they're going to look like before they can make a decision on "Yup, that's what I want to do."

So we do that on the exterior, but also on the interior, if you've ever heard of Matterport. A lot of people know about the circles on the ground as you walk through a unit. So we do that in every unit type, so that every floorplan that you have, you can go in and do Matterport. And what that allows you to do is you can take measurements from Matterport, but also you can envision what you want to do to those units, or those models, and go, "Oh, I want to change the cabinets here, I want to blow out that wall, I want to do this." So it's more visual for these people than just data on a spreadsheet. We also give you the data on the spreadsheet, but we also do that.

Well, what that has done is allowed people to make better decisions on what they're going to do, not only visual decisions, but also financial decisions. So "Hey, I have $250,000 of stuff that needs to be replaced, and I'm going to go with his CapEx budget, and half of that 250k, I'm already including. So I'm going to replace appliances", and let's say half of that was appliances that they had and needs replacement. Well, it won't double-dip, right? So our program helps you not double-dip on that, and create your CapEx budget. So now you present a package to your lender, "This is what I want to do. I have a $2 million budget on CapEx, and here's where I'm going to spend it." So that's better for these lenders, who are skittish as it is, on where they want to supply funds for and how they want to do it. This gives them the whole roadmap of how you might go. So that is proven to be a good solution for those guys. And then executing on the CapEx.

And then we do your draws with your lenders for you, so that you don't have to worry about managing that whole piece. We send out the AI form to you, you sign off on it, we send it over to the lender, the lender sends the draws. And we're finding out that when we do it, we're about three weeks from when we submit the AI form from when we're getting funding on that... Which, selfishly for us, helps us keep cash-flowing. So it makes everybody's life easier, you can hit your performance faster, and things of that nature. So that's kind of it in a nutshell, how we take it.

Slocomb Reed: Dax, with my own limited experience, I can see how a white glove due diligence process regarding the physical condition of the property and renovation plans can fairly efficiently be made nationwide. There are a few specific services that you know how to render, you know your costs, you know how much you need to charge for them... I want to get back to that in a minute; I'm not going to ask you your specific pricing. But when it comes to construction management and all of the moving parts, the subcontractors, all of the local connections that are required for heavier lifts in large multifamily, how involved are you in the actual construction management of projects that are hundreds, if not thousands of miles from you in Texas?

Dax Ferguson: So I'd be foolish to say I'm the guy that's doing it all, because I'm not. I have an incredible team around me; project managers, office staff, everybody, that really executes it well. We have anywhere from 300 to 500 at any given time guys in the field. How we execute that is they stay on the properties we're working on. So if you need us in Georgia, I'll send a team of 10 to 13 guys, or whatever it takes to get the job done. They're going to stay on property, they're going to work Monday through Saturday, they're going to take off Sunday, and then they're going to watch the material, they're going to make sure all of it is maintained. That's our guys on the ground daily. But I also have project managers that come in and they're managing the whole process, making sure we're on schedule, making sure all the materials are dropping on time, all of that stuff; they manage that piece of it.

And so we kind of have a multi-tiered project management. So we have a project manager, then we have our labor lead... But within that, we have flooring lead, we have demo lead, we have painting lead. So we have all these leads and handle that. Cleaning lead. So we have all of these different specialties that maintain all that, and then they all report up, so that we have one seamless communication. And then we do a weekly Zoom call with all the syndicators to tell them, "Here's where we're at." So our project manager, financing, everybody's on the call. "Here's some issues we're having. How can you help us with these issues? We need these answers, so you keep moving forward." So we handle it that way, and it seems to work really well. It doesn't matter where I'm at. I'm going to Vegas tomorrow for an event, and then I could be in Atlanta, or Florida, or wherever, and all of our jobs are running, and then it all reports up to our system in real time. We have a software; any photograph that's taken goes into the portal, and let's say you're the syndicator - you'll get a notification when a new photo has been uploaded, and you can look at that. A new document has been uploaded, I want you to look at that, or sign it maybe if it's a change order, or whatever. So all of this stuff is done in real time, in real communication, so that everybody knows where everything's at at any given time.

Slocomb Reed: Just to be clear, Dax, 300 to 500 people deployed. Does that mean that the people who are doing the painting and the drywall and the landscaping in these properties are all employees of yours?

Dax Ferguson: Nope. They're not employees. They are subcontractors that only work for us.

Slocomb Reed: Subcontractors that only work for you. That is a helpful clarification. I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio. So actually, quick question; I want to build a hypothetical here. What is the target property size that makes a good client for you?

100 units or more is my typical ask. We've done less when it's a super-heavy lift, 75 to 80. When it's a heavy lift, it makes sense for us to do that, and mobilize our crews up there. But 100 units or more is typical, my standard go-to answer. Or a million dollars' worth of work. It kind of balances itself out.

Slocomb Reed: 100+ units, a million dollars' worth of work. That makes sense. You're not sourcing these independent contractors locally then, are you? You're sending them into the project from your most recent project. Is that correct?

Dax Ferguson: Yeah, that's correct. However, there's licensing, right? So you have plumbers, HVAC, and electrical. So a lot of the trades that travel with us carry license in multiple states. However, there are some states that they don't have a license for, or we haven't done work before, and we source local, to be able to fill the gaps where we need to.

Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. I feel compelled to ask, Dax... I imagine you have some horror stories where projects have gone sideways, whether it be a people issue, or a property condition issue that wasn't uncovered doing due diligence. Given that you are, in layman's terms, a general contractor here - do you have projects you've lost money on?

Dax Ferguson: Oh, for sure. I'll give you a couple of different scenarios. With lenders tightening up the way that they're tightening up today, we've had issues where we've performed our work, our work is done, and done well, and the lender came and signed off on it, and it's good. But there was an operational issue. So operationally, they had vacated the property so heavily that they couldn't get above acceptable range for the lender. So it became a problem for them to be able to get us paid, because it wasn't acceptable with the lender of where occupancy was. So that became a major problem that we had.

And then we ended up getting it worked out, we got paid, but we had to borrow money, so that we could be able to continue on in business because we planned on getting those paid. And one thing that we pride ourselves on is when people work for us, we pay them. We don't wait to be paid to pay them, and that's just how you keep good people working for you. So if you want to know a secret sauce, that's part of it.

But another scenario where we did due diligence and went through this property and everything was fine, and everything was good... With a few nasty issues, but nothing major... And then 90 days later, they closed on the property, and then we went and did our construction kickoff walk, and at that point, they had a heavily unoccupied area of the property, and there was a little bit of theft in the early stages, maybe 10 units, but by the time we started work, there were over 100 units that had been vandalized. They'd stolen all the copper, all the units were flooded because they didn't turn off the water, but they were flooding the units... So heavily, heavily damaged, which made the project -- it was like a million and a half dollars or more just to fix the additional repairs that we didn't plan on fixing.

So those are some of the horror stories there... Currently, to date, I haven't been fired from a multifamily job, but I make a promise, I'm going to commit to my deal, I'm going to fulfill my promise to you, but I may not make as much money as I could have on that deal. So those are the things that I deal with on that.

Slocomb Reed: Dax, I'd like to pivot the conversation a bit here. I want to ask for advice, both personally and for our listeners. I will say I'm already in the process of doing this, personally; we can talk about me a little more if you want to, but thinking about our audience and myself, apartment operators, for those of us who want to bring a construction management in-house, two things here. I want your advice on what we should be doing to bring construction management in-house, but I also want your advice on how we can better handle construction due diligence on our own.

Dax Ferguson: Well, there's a couple of ways. So it depends on how much scale you want to do. So it's going to depend on how well you can buy product and material, and how more accessible the material is going to be to you. So I would say those are some of the challenges that if you want to - I'm going to call it GC this yourself. I have a pretty good pool with paint supplies and material that people are making sure that I'm getting my material, because I'm going to continue to buy time and time again. So it makes it a little bit easier for me to get material than it would be for somebody starting out. So there's one caveat to managing yourself.

It is cheaper to manage it yourself, there's no doubt, and I would say you're probably on average saving about 20% doing it yourself, versus me doing it. And that's okay if you're willing to do that, and do the work that it's going to take to get you there. If you're on-site, you're managing the crews, and things of that nature. However, if you're looking to do large scale, with speed, it's very difficult. I'm not saying impossible, but it's very difficult to be able to achieve all of that when you're doing it yourself. So those are considerations to think through when you're planning on doing it yourself. And my question back to you is, "Why are you wanting to do it yourself? Is it to save this amount of money? Or is it to do it better? What is your question?" Because, honestly, if you're turning five units a month, and I'm turning 30 units a month, on average - which I am, on every property we're on - there's a 25-unit per month delta that you have to make up of units that you can't rent. So if the average rent is $1,000, you're losing $25,000 of additional revenue that you could have been gaining if I did it. And let's say it's a $10,000, and I'm $2,000, for round math; I'm spending $2,000 more on the 30 units. Well, that's $60,000 additional. But you're losing $25,000 a month, month one. Month two, again, you're doing the same thing. So what breaking point makes sense for you to utilize a GC, versus you doing it yourself? And some cases I'm 95% full; I only have five vacant units, and I plan on only having four additional units every month. And that's fine, too. It just depends on where the property is, and if it makes sense for us to do it, or you.

Break: [00:17:38.23]

Slocomb Reed: Dax, I want to give you two answers to that question, and then I want to get it back to actually getting some advice. My two answers come from personal experience, and I'm just gonna hope our active investor listeners resonate with it. Again, it's an interesting conversation for passive investors to have with sponsors that they are considering, but I'm focused on myself right now, let's be honest.

Dax Ferguson: Be selfish, it's okay.

Slocomb Reed: This is a conversation between you, I and several thousands other people... So I have two answers for you. One of them is my entire portfolio is smaller than the stuff that you typically do, and there are a lot of people operating very successfully in the apartment investing space that are only doing deals smaller than 100 units, that probably don't have the scale in any one property, or even in any one market at one time to need to turn 30 units a month the way that you can, with the bandwidth, manpower, purchasing power that you have.

The other piece of it here - and this is more particular to me - as an apartment operator with a growing portfolio, one of the things that I recognized... I still self-manage, and I do my own construction management now. One of the things that I realized is that I hit a tough middle ground where I couldn't do everything myself any more, but also, my portfolio did not justify getting independent contractors who work exclusively for me, or W-2 people. So one of the things that I started to do was offer those services third party, in order to justify getting people who work exclusively for me, who I could treat well, pay well and keep busy, and then use the third party work as a further source of income, alongside the growth of my portfolio and my other income streams. Does that makes sense?

Dax Ferguson: 100%.

Slocomb Reed: So my personal experiences is more particular, which is why I'm asking for general advice for active operators who want to do their own construction management... But what I have done is I've put together rehab crews who can handle general apartment turns very quickly, efficiently; they go where I tell them to go, relatively when I tell them to go there, and do what I tell them to do, and I know that I have them on tap when there are needs within my portfolio, and then I can fill in their time with third party work, which is in very high demand, when necessary. I'm also branching out into the trades, getting tradespeople, who are coming to me to have a steady income, not need to worry about the backend business stuff or sales... And then I know, for example, that all of my cooling systems are being serviced in April, when we're recording, and all of my heating systems are being serviced in September, because it does actually get cold here, in Cincinnati; it gets hot, too.

So those are a couple of answers to your questions. One of them is a lot of us are dealing with properties too small for you, Dax, and the other is that I particularly was looking to bring in-house the things that my own portfolio needs, and I particularly was doing it while also offering those services third party, so that I know I have, frankly, the resources that I have available to my portfolio; my portfolio would have to be about two to four times its current size to justify the human resources that I have access to now... And I keep those people busy, happy, well-paid, and lucrative for me by bringing on third-party clients.

Dax Ferguson: Yeah, for sure.

Slocomb Reed: So question, with all that being said, advice for me, and advice for apartment operators who are not operating in spaces where they can hire you, but want to bring construction management in-house, please.

Dax Ferguson: So advice would be open some accounts and get some loyalty with some accounts, so that you can start purchasing them in all your property, to be loyal. So I wouldn't say I'm gonna run - I'm just gonna use names - run to Home Depot for one, and then Lowe's for another, and over here, because if you're buying for all of your properties, and you're buying it through one source, you're going to get better discounts. They're gonna take care of you a little better, so talk to them about what you're trying to do. You're probably not going to get a rep at one of these locations that's going to take care of you, but if you lump everything together as one account, if you will, ABC Properties, and ABC Properties owns your whole portfolio, right?'ll be able to get a lot more leverage that way, and it's going to help you. So that's one thing I would do.

Slocomb Reed: This is leverage when it comes to purchasing materials.

Dax Ferguson: Yeah, purchasing materials.

Slocomb Reed: And the purpose of this leverage is to control cost.

Dax Ferguson: Yeah.

Slocomb Reed: Where generally speaking do you recommend that operators start opening those accounts, if not Home Depot?

Dax Ferguson: A big supplier, whether Sherwin Williams, PPG... I would open one of those accounts for paint, for sure. We personally use PPG, just because we have an incredible rep. He takes care of us, and we're pretty high up on the list, so he makes sure that we have paint, so we don't have paint issues like everybody's been having over the last few years. We have not. So that's one. We do a ton of business with Home Depot, millions of dollars annually with Home Depot, and that's a great relationship that we have. And they we have a couple of other suppliers that we use as backup, or supplemental, if we need to, to help us out... Because there's always a time where Home Depot doesn't have something, or can't get something, so we have some supplemental that we go for for ticky-tack stuff that we've got to pick up. That's our jam. That's what's working really well for us. Other people have different accounts. I know there's Chadwell that's out there, and there's Lowes, obviously... But we have just found that we've been taken care of by those guys, that we have no need to really go anywhere else.

And then a shingle supplier, if you're going to buy shingles, and have your maintenance guy do that. We personally use ABC Supply; they've been really good to us, taking care of us there... But having all those, you can pretty much get anything done. If you're waiting until you need them, then it's too late. But if you're making the relationships beforehand, and getting ahead of it, and saying "This is what I'm planning on doing, I just want to have somebody I can call and get something done. Is this the best way to do it? Can you check the pricing?", things of that nature, it's always helpful. And that's been great for us.

Slocomb Reed: Anecdotally, I needed a concrete supplier and I waited until it was too late... And if I had developed a relationship with a concrete supplier, it would have been easier and more affordable to get the concrete I needed for the patio I needed to pour.

Dax Ferguson: Yup, it's helpful to do it ahead of time. And if you plan on not doing a one-off, "I'm going to do one property, and I don't know if I'm going to do another one", creating those relationships, it's time-consuming, it is, because you need to go through and do it... But I'll tell you, in the long-run, it will save you a ton of money having those when you need the favor.

Slocomb Reed: So open some accounts. What other advice do you have for people who want to be doing their own construction management? Well, let me ask a more direct question. At what point should we be looking to either bring on staff, or bring on independent contractors who work exclusively for us?

Dax Ferguson: If this is your first property, I will tell you that it's going to be a lot harder, because they don't want to come talk to you until you have something for them. So if you're calling them going "Well, in the future I'm looking at this, I'm doing this", it's a little bit harder to get some commitments from people, and they're gonna give you their, what I'd call retail numbers. However, if you call them and say, "I'm closing on this property tomorrow, and I'm going to need you in a couple of weeks", you might get -- my guys are going to be sitting on the couch in two weeks, and I need to really get them to work, so I'm going to give you a better price today. That's easier. But getting pricing put together beforehand, I have found to be a little harder, because they don't want to give you a price that's gonna be a competitive price until you have work in hand.

So where to find those guys? Oh, my goodness; there's numerous ways to find them, depending on what you're looking for, and what trade you're needing. If you know people in the area of multifamily, I would always [unintelligible 00:27:56.06] and see what information I can get from them. If you don't, and you're needing a painter, go to your paint stores, go to your paint rep. If you've already set up the Sherwin Williams, or whatever, and go "I need some painters. I've got this project coming up, and I'm gonna need some. Do you have any labor?", they all know people. They're going to be able to give you a few names, you'll be able to interview them, and you're gonna be able to pick the painter that you want to choose out of that selection. That has proven to me in years past when I used to do a lot of residential to be a better way to find some of those labor sources... And some of those guys have followed me through to multifamily, and done very well. So that's where I used to find a lot of labor.

I don't go to the guys that are waiting on the corner at the gas station when you pull up, they're like, "Hey, pick me, pick me. I'm a day laborer guy." I've found those guys to not be as business-minded and forthseeing to be able to get to a job on time, and things like that. So those I would stay away from. Occasionally, if you need a trench dug, something like that, they may be the guys to help you out. But long-term painters, flooring guys, things of that nature, they're not typically gonna be your best bet.

Slocomb Reed: Last question here before we transition the episode when it comes to bringing rehabbers in-house... A generic answer to the question "When does it make sense to bring people on "full-time"?", whether they're employees or independent contractors, a generic answer would be when I know that I can keep them busy full-time that I want it. I want it somewhat in-house, I want to have more control, and I want to find people that I like, and I want to keep them working for me, which means keeping them busy. Great generic answer.

Follow-up - assuming, Dax, that's a good answer you could start with, follow-up to that, for how long do I need to know that I can keep them busy today? Do I need to know that I have two weeks worth of projects and something else will come up in the next two weeks? Do I need to know that I have three months' worth of projects and something else will come up in the next three months? Do you understand the question?

Dax Ferguson: I totally understand it. How it's worked for me in the past - it's been pretty organic and natural, from "I've got a job for you. Hey, I've got another job for you. Hey, I've got another job for you." And then you're like, "Hey, I'm gonna be busy for the next 30 days. You good? We're just going to keep going and move forward that way?" That seemed to be the natural progression that I took. It was job-based specific, and then it was, "I've got several jobs that are coming back to back to back, or all at one time. How many can you handle? Or "Can you get some guys together and help me handle multiple projects?" And investing in them. So I invest in all of my guys in the field, and now my project managers do the same thing. They invest into them, like, "Hey, we're growing here. Do you want to grow with us? Are you good where you're at? Or are you comfortable staying on pace, and going with us?"

So you'll find that some people say that they want to grow with you, but they just can't perform when they're doing more than one project at a time. So versus committing to that beforehand, I pressure them in the sense that I give them enough work to see if they can handle it, and see if it's a natural fit for them, before I commit to them saying, "Come on board with me. I'm going to give you everything I've got in this range, for this amount of time, and go for it."

But if you're asking for a specific answer on your question, I would say two to four weeks. If you want me to answer that black and white, I would say two to four weeks. However, I think it's more of a natural thing than a black and white.

Slocomb Reed: At the end of the day, this is really a people business, isn't it? So there's some subjectivity. It's not as cut and dry, because at the end of the day, this is people. And you could think you have four weeks' worth of work lined up, and then you have clients back out on you at at the last minute. So that makes a lot of sense. Dax, are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Dax Ferguson: Yeah, let's go.

Slocomb Reed: What is the Best Ever book you've recently read?

Dax Ferguson: You know what's funny, is I go back to this book a lot and refer to it; it's David Goggins, "Can't hurt me." And the reason why I go back to it - because it's about mental toughness. It's not all about physical toughness, and things of that nature, although [unintelligible 00:32:09.23] but it's mental toughness. And when you think you can't go anymore, you can go just a little bit further. So that's kind of how I look at my day. I'm like, "Dang it, I'm tired. I've got nine kids. They keep me busy." So I've got all these other responsibilities in the business, out of the business, and I've just got to keep going. So when I hit a wall, and look at my wife and say, "Oh, I'm struggling here doing that", I've got to suck it up a little bit, and just go a little bit further. So that book speaks to me almost on a daily basis. Just -- and it's not all about business. It's just about how do you keep going when you're down on yourself, and you're tired, and you don't want to go anymore... There's always a little bit more in there, and you can keep going. So I use that one as my go-to, and I refer back to it a lot.

Slocomb Reed: Speaking specifically to multifamily construction management, Dax, what is the biggest mistake you've made, and the Best Ever lesson that resulted from it?

Dax Ferguson: Telling somebody in the multifamily world that I wasn't going to give them change orders, and I didn't give them change orders, and lost money, knowing that I wanted the job, and I wanted to get it; this is early on... Don't make that mistake again, because they're going to make changes on you that you can't run a change order for... So just keep it to "This is my scope of work, and as long as it stays within this, you won't have change orders. But once I've peeled back that onion, and see something else, I'm going to have to send you a change order for it." And you would be foolish as a syndicator out there to think that there's not going to be change orders on your job, because there's always something that's found out.

So my rule of thumb is a minimum of 10% contingency for your change orders, because it's going to happen. And my goodness, if you don't use it, kudos to you; you can send it over to the lender and pay down your note and move further. So don't make the mistake of thinking you're never going to have a change order.

Slocomb Reed: I'm construction-managing an empty six-unit right now, and when we got in, literally every water fixture in the building was leaking, and every single one needed to be replaced, and there was no way that we could foresee that. So to your point, Dax, I'm grateful that I had some flexibility, some fluidity in my billing with the owner, so that the amount of time that needed to be spent addressing plumbing fixtures could be addressed without having to flip the table on the invoice, with the quote that I had given. What, Dax, is your Best Ever advice?

Dax Ferguson: Be true to who you are. Be honest, be open. This business specifically is a relationship business. And if they can't trust who you are, because you're always worried about covering something else up, you won't make it in this business. Lies are exposed pretty frequently in this business, and if you're open and honest on giving your best foot, and doing the right and ethical thing all the time, you can be a success all day, every day, in this business. Because people are forgiving when it's an honest mistake.

Slocomb Reed: Last question, where can people get in touch with you?

Dax Ferguson: I'm still one of the goofy ones that gives out my cell phone. So my cell number is 469-261-1190. Or you can email me at dax [at]

Slocomb Reed: That contact info is in the show notes. Dax, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from our episode today, please do subscribe to our show. Leave us a five-star review and share this episode with a friend that you know we can add value to through our conversation today. Thank you, and have a Best Ever day.

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The information, statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed or provided in this website (including by speakers who are not officers, employees, or agents of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC) are not necessarily those of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC, and may not be current. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions contained in this website, and any liability therefor (including in respect of direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage of any kind whatsoever) is expressly disclaimed. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC undertake any obligation whatsoever to provide any form of update, amendment, change or correction to any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions set forth in this podcast.

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Oral Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to

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