Danny Spitz started his real estate career 20 years ago as an underwriter doing transactions for a middle-market Bank in Chicago. Eventually, he was able to land a mentorship from a broker, investor, and developer who showed him the real estate ropes.
Today, Danny is the CEO and managing partner of Greenstone Partners, a brokerage that focuses on various commercial real estate properties including multifamily, industrial, mixed-use, retail, and office. He is a GP of four properties and an LP of over 12 properties across four states. In this episode, he tells us how he typically finds deals, the hardest lesson he’s learned during his 20-year run in the industry, and what he is seeing in terms of macroeconomics with real estate right now.
Danny Spitz | Real Estate Background
- CEO and managing partner of Greenstone Partners, a brokerage that focuses on various commercial real estate properties including multifamily, industrial, mixed-use, retail, and office.
- Portfolio:
- GP of four properties
- LP of over 12 properties across four states
- Based in: Chicago, IL
- Say hi to him at:
- Greatest Lesson: Lean on others who specialize in areas you don’t. Don’t think you can be a GP immediately. It takes years and a number of deals as a limited partner to learn.
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TRANSCRIPT
Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Danny Spitz. Danny is joining us from Chicago, Illinois. He's the CEO and managing Partner of Greenstone Partners, a brokerage that focuses on various commercial real estate properties, including multifamily, industrial, mixed use, retail and office. Danny's portfolio consists of being a GP on four properties, and an LP on over a dozen properties across four states. Danny, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Danny Spitz: I'm all right. I'm feeling well. How are you?
Ash Patel: Very well. Thanks for asking. Danny, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Danny Spitz: Absolutely. I'm in year 20 of real estate now, out of those graduates from Colorado State University. I started off as an underwriter for a middle market bank in Chicago, doing commercial transactions... Banking was not my thing. I moved into real estate. It was always a passion of mine, ever since I was a kid. I luckily landed with a mentorship, with a one-on-one mentorship to learn the business from scratch. He was a broker/investor/developer in Chicago; after a little bit of time learning the ropes, I moved on to a larger company, which was actually one of the top 10 residential companies today in the country, and I pioneered a commercial division from scratch with a couple other colleagues. Fast-forward, I moved into pure commercial brokerage investment sales only about 12 years ago, and then currently doing the same thing, but I'm doing it with my own partners and my own company, for about the past four and a half years.
Ash Patel: What does that mean, doing your own thing?
Danny Spitz: On our own business. We run our own brokerage company and investment shop. That's what I meant by that.
Ash Patel: Got it. Why did you get away from residential?
Danny Spitz: I never was a residential broker. I learned the business with a little bit of a hybrid concept from my mentor, who owned apartments, sold some homes... And then I moved to a residential company because I was working with a lot of developers in Chicago. I found a niche in teardown properties on the North side of Chicago, which I met a bunch of developers. And I also did commercial leasing on the side as well as part of my learning. So I was offered the opportunity to come over, because no one was doing commercial at a residential company, and with that in mind, over 1,000 agents by the time I left, we started a commercial group from scratch, and it's still there today. I never really did residential purely. It wasn't an interest to me, to be quite honest.
Ash Patel: Yeah, no, I get it. So I've been a non residential commercial investor for about 10 years, and I do the same thing. I try to convince all the multifamily, all the residential people to go into commercial. Look at office retail, industrial, flex, mixed-use. Out of all of those asset classes that you represent, where do you invest your money? Or where do you find deals today?
Danny Spitz: For my personal investment, just to be clear, we are an investment sales brokerage shop, and we do investment separately, outside of our company here. My first property I ever purchased myself was a three-flat; three apartments. After that, I said I'm never doing that again. And what I focus on now is mostly mixed use, and retail. And the mixed use, what I mean by that - in Chicago, most of the mixed use here is retail plus apartments, or plus office above. There's always a retail component. Coincidentally, I do have some investments in some redevelopments into multifamily, but that's with some other partners who that's their specialty.
Ash Patel: Why do you like mixed use?
Danny Spitz: Diversification of your rent roll. Apartments are probably the easiest to speculate on. I think they're the safest, historically speaking, and probably future looking... And retail, it gives you a little diversification. Now, there's obviously some advantages and disadvantages to either way you cut it, but being in a big city, I believe that the neighborhood storefronts and the retail components of whatever city you're in is really the motor that drives the neighborhoods, and I liked that part of it.
Ash Patel: Danny, do you find that there's less competition for mixed use buildings?
Danny Spitz: Absolutely.
Ash Patel: Yeah. I did a solo podcast called Beyond Multifamily for the Best Ever brand, and I shared a story about an mixed use buildings that sat on the market for ages. And it was four apartments over a lawyer's office. But it could have been gutted and converted to anything. It sat on the market... I got phone calls from residential people asking me to help them evaluate it, because it's commercial, and they were all scared because of the commercial component. But if this was just four units without the commercial, it would have gone for twice the price that I bought it for.
Danny Spitz: I one hundred percent agree.
Ash Patel: So I love that. Mixed use just scares away competition.
Danny Spitz: That too, and we sell one of our core focuses that historically have been my niche being in a large metropolitan city - we've done a lot of mixed use, we continue to do a lot of mixed use sales in general, versus like you just said, a 3, 4, 6 flat, there's 10 buyers lined up. On mixed use, there's maybe three or four, and they all are underwriting the credit on the retail tenants differently, depending on what it is and where it is.
Ash Patel: Can you reparcel those things into two, split the residential and commercial?
Danny Spitz: Done it.
Ash Patel: Ah, so now you can appeal to all the multifamily people, sell it at a super-high price, because they're overpaying for a lot of things right now, and then sell the retail to somebody like me, that doesn't want to deal with apartments.
Danny Spitz: 100%. However, I must preface that - now, Chicago has an interesting tax situation for real estate taxes. There are tax advantages to having mixed use with apartments in Chicago specifically; every municipality is different, I'm sure. But you get assessed at a lower rate when you have a multifamily component with the commercial. If it's 100% commercial, you get taxed at a higher rate. So there are some disadvantages to bifurcating it.
Ash Patel: Got it. Interesting.
Danny Spitz: The commercial owner gets hit a little bit harder.
Ash Patel: What are other asset classes that you're investing in?
Danny Spitz: Currently, I'm actually redeveloping an old historic temple in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in two large multifamily units. And then we also acquired a land site with retail up in Arizona that we are going to entitle for multifamily development. So not that I'm a multifamily investor, but now I'm a little bit more hands-on in recent years on it, because it is a very strong and stable sector.
Ash Patel: And you're opportunistic, and you're looking for wherever the deals are.
Danny Spitz: Correct.
Ash Patel: How did you find the deal in Arizona?
Danny Spitz: This is a great deal story. [unintelligible 00:07:22.11] I went to Arizona State, and this deal's in Tempe. He's in real estate, but he's based on the West Coast. We don't see each other often, but we catch up. I happened to call him to catch up with some mutual friends, and thought I'd see how he's doing, and he was a little bummed out [unintelligible 00:07:37.07] six, seven months ago, and was like "We just dropped this deal in Tempe." I'm like, "Excuse me, what are you talking about?" And he's like, "Yeah, my friend, my partner bailed, for different reasons, and he was my equity." I'm like, "Okay, so let me ask you a simple question. Can we simply step into his shoes and reinstate the deal?" And he paused, and he's like, "Yes, why not?"
Long story short, he had about three to four months of diligence completed, everything teed up, he sent us the package of all the information, me and my partner here in Chicago, one of my partners here in Chicago, we went through it, we flew out there, and we're like, "We're in." And we had to go hard immediately to reinstate it, so because everything was -- all the legwork was done for three to four months ahead, in advance, it was a very easy decision. Plus, I know the area well out there. I can't say that for a lot of other places, but in Tempe or an Arizona, the Phoenix area, I know it pretty well.
Ash Patel: Yeah, a true person that's passionate about real estate, as soon as they hear the word "deal", your ears perk up, and you've got to get to the bottom of it. How do you typically find deals?
Danny Spitz: Being a broker for the past 17+ years, it's all about growing that network and trust. And what I mean by that is -- as an example, even this morning... Perfect example - a good client of mine who became a friend [unintelligible 00:08:52.04] did a really good job on an execution last year on a large portfolio sale of flex industrial actually, in the area here... He referred me to a friend of his who was thinking of closing a textile shop in the city, a big industrial warehouse type building. And I talked to the guy this morning, we caught up, and he told me what the plan is, retirement, etc. And I was like, "Well, what do you want to do? I would love to look at this." And this is a pure example, and we pause from there and then we'll catch up later, but the example is is deals like this come in and out of left field being in this business, day in day out, for so many years. We have a very distinct demarcation of if we're going to look at it for ourselves versus look at it for our company from brokerage perspective. But sometimes the client just wants to do a little quiet deal, a private situation. If it's something that's up our repertoire, we will definitely look at it. So that's one example. That's usually how we find things, is just been entrenched in our market here.
Ash Patel: Do you look specifically at a geographic region?
Danny Spitz: No. We're agnostic to geography. Obviously, my professional opinion is you want want to be able to drive in less than a half day hopefully to places, so if you have to go visit it, you can. But that's also part of the reason why you have partners in other locations, too.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Or a direct flight.
Danny Spitz: Or a direct flight. That works.
Ash Patel: Yeah. So Greenstone Partners takes on investors for deals?
Danny Spitz: No Greystone Partners is purely our brokerage company. We as private investors, on the side, separately, and some other partners, we syndicate or we raise LP equity as part of the deals that we put together.
Ash Patel: Is there a company name, or do you just do it based on your network?
Danny Spitz: Yeah, that's single-purpose LLCs, depending on the deal. It's deal by deal, we don't have a company that does it.
Ash Patel: Why not formalize that and blow that side of the business up?
Danny Spitz: It's a good question. It's been something that's [unintelligible 00:10:46.02] for a while now. And my partner - that's his side of the business, and they actually are getting close to doing that. They have a fund set up, and that's what they're working on now. A little bit more institutionally-based, so it's a little bit higher-level stuff. That's kind of where we've got to at this point with the deals we look at.
Ash Patel: What kind of returns do your investors typically see?
Danny Spitz: Typically, what we look to provide is - at least this is my perspective; every deal is different, so it's hard to pinpoint exactly what that number is. Obviously, you have the LP equity gets their yield and preferred terms. I focus on "How can my investors double their money?" That's how I look at it; there's no rhyme or reason to it, it's the way I have invested since the beginning, putting money in some deals with friends of mine, or clients of mine as just simple passive LP equity. If I can see a path to doubling my equity, I feel great about it. And then you have some margin for error there as well, because obviously, no one wants to put in 50k and get back 50k. You want to put it 50k and get more. So if you can find a way or path, and it makes sense, that's the way I target my returns.
Ash Patel: And how many years does that typically take?
Danny Spitz: Well, if you're lucky, it can take less than a year, which can happen sometimes. But it depends on the business plan for the property. Every property is different. I have properties that I'm a partner in, that we just rehabbed... Five or six apartments, rehabbed them, lease to retail, and then we refi, get all of our equity out, and we still own it. On the same street in a little neighborhood in Chicago we own with one partner three buildings near each other, on the same block. One we sold, the other two we've kept; [unintelligible 00:12:24.17] we have great debt. The other one we sold because we put a brand new medical tenant in the retail for 10 years, so we're at the max value of this lease... So why don't we liquidate, sell it and take some chips off the table? And that took six years. That was a five or six year hold on that one, for example.
Ash Patel: Are your investors mostly friends or family? Or do you have people that you don't know as well?
Danny Spitz: Both, starting with some of these newer projects I'm working on. I've gone outside my comfort zone, trying to raise money; one of my partners here has raised some institutional money on his own; that's not my doing. So mostly friends and family to start, but as we've progressed in time, it's become a little bit more of a wider net, from people from other parts of the country.
Ash Patel: And where are investors' expectations today in terms of returns? Are they tempered a little bit from what they were in the years past?
Danny Spitz: Some people like to look at different metrics, right? Some people like to look at IRR, for example, some people like to look at equity multiples, which is my way of looking at it. Some people like to look at what the cash flow may be if they hold it long-term. It's across the board. I couldn't say there's one specific metric that's used, because every deal and every person, investor is different. I think what's most important is that they are comfortable with the sponsor. If they believe in the sponsor, and they're familiar with their products and their projects, I think that's almost more important than exactly quantifying what that total return will end up being... Because then you know that - okay, things happen. Prices go up, things happen, the economy, recession, etc. COVID for example... But as long as you believe in that sponsor and the project on the surface, I think most people - that's where their head's at first, at least in my experience.
Break: [00:14:09.23] to [00:16:05.21]
Ash Patel: Danny, you've had a very successful 20-year run in this industry. What's the hardest lesson you've learned in real estate?
Danny Spitz: The hardest lesson - it's one thing I keep very close to me. My mentor a long time ago had this sign on his bathroom door, of all places... And it said "If you talk about it, you lose it." And I didn't know what that meant until it's happened a few times, where you get excited about a deal or an opportunity, whether it's a brokerage opportunity or investment opportunity, and they start chatting and talking to people... It's cutthroat business; no one cares that you found an opportunity. They're gonna say, "Oh, interesting. I'm gonna go figure that out for myself." So one thing that's important, I've learned, is controlling something before you get it.
Ash Patel: Interesting, yeah. And we're heading into an environment with increased rates... What are you seeing in terms of macroeconomics with real estate?
Danny Spitz: Because we're a very active investment sales company in Chicago, this is what helps with our investment thesis as well - we have a very real-time pulse on the marketplace here, and from Q1 of 2022 it was very busy; let's just say we've put out a standard $3 million deal mixed use property in Chicago, for example... We'd normally have 7 to 10 interested parties; whether they're that serious or not, who knows. But in the past few months, ever since the volatility kicked into high gear, and no one's sure where things are gonna settle, we've probably had half the amount or less; maybe anywhere from two to four people looking at it.
So the total velocity of buyers has gone down. The buyer pool has shrunk, in my perspective. And what I'm learning and what I'm hearing is that I think everyone's pausing; the institutional people are pausing for sure, but all the private investors - I've had investors that just said, "I'm gonna pay my cap gains instead of 1031-ing, and wait for this thing to settle." I think it's a mistake, in my opinion, because of the all the advantages of investing in real estate... But we see that once things start to settle or you start seeing the settling of interest rates and capital markets, people will start coming out again.
Ash Patel: I haven't seen cap rates move much for very sought-after assets, the long-term net lease properties... Are you seeing sellers be a little bit more lenient on their sale price, or are they still holding steady?
Danny Spitz: It depends on the asset and the psychology of each seller, obviously. But generally speaking, the best-in-class tenants, for triple net, for example - they are not losing a beat on their cap rates. We have a couple of those single-tenant Chipotles and Starbucks that our firm sells, and they're still in the four and a half cap range, for example. We're seeing the medium-quality credits, or kind of the non-credit, mom and pop type of operators that occupy, for example, retail spaces or mixed use - those cap rates are ticking upwards. Our mixed use deals in Chicago typically have been selling in the six to six and a half cap range in the past handful of years. Now we're hovering in the seven range, just as a real-time example of what we're seeing. And it all comes down to financing; that's gone up, the debt service has gone up... And the key component, from what we're learning from the marketplace, is debt service coverage. So as long as that stays in that 1.2 to 1.3 range, they're able to get that financing. Now, the way it correlates to cap rates, as most people would understand, is that that's only driven by the purchase price, and the ultimate leverage amount. So we're seeing the level of the purchase prices trickle down a little bit for the general average deal... But like you said, the triple net, best-in-class warehouses, retail, etc. there's no supply.
Ash Patel: And I'm assuming that's all institutional money chasing those deals.
Danny Spitz: It depends on the size. But yes, the larger deals - absolutely. However, a lot of institutional money is paused for Q3, or at least Q2, Q3. But anything under 5 million, it's all private money, private capital. That's our focus. We do a lot of private capital work. And you have someone who sold -- we have a lot of trade buyers out of California sell their three caps, so their apartment buildings. And they come to Chicago or wherever, and they say, "Oh, big cash for a five cap. I don't care. That's fine." They're just parking their money.
Ash Patel: Who's buying four-cap Chipotle is for $2 million?
Danny Spitz: The example I just gave you - the family or person that sold a 30-year hold apartment building in Orange County, for example, for a crazy price, and they're like, "I just want to preserve my capital or preserve my wealth and park it in a four cap."
Ash Patel: Interesting. I thought that was all institutional money.
Danny Spitz: The largest [unintelligible 00:20:50.00] the Amazon warehouses, and the 20+ million dollar deals, that's more institutional, and that's more cap rate sensitivity, because they focus on -- if they're a REIT, they have shareholders and yields they've gotta hit, and thresholds... But the private capital - they can care less, as long as they don't pay taxes and they depreciate the asset, and they get their cash flow, and they have nothing -- it's hands-off.
Ash Patel: And it's typically a cash purchase?
Danny Spitz: Typically, yeah. Today, you can't really finance a four and a half cap; maybe 40% leverage, you can do it. I mean, people have done that just to lever up a little bit.
Ash Patel: Yeah, interesting. Danny, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Danny Spitz: Collaboration. Don't go at it alone. And I think you can learn off other people, and I think trying to just go solo and being a little greedy, looking for the full amount of the proceeds or profits you get sometimes can be short-sighted, because two or three brains is a lot better than your own, just by yourself sometimes. And other ideas come in, and other... Then you have partners for life at that point, too.
Ash Patel: Yeah, it took me a while to learn that one, but very good advice. You're also an LP investor on over a dozen different deals. What types of properties are those?
Danny Spitz: Some are mixed use deals in the city, where the sponsor is a friend who does all the construction work. He is a GC by trade, so I have some retail development deals that I'm involved with as well, like ground-up triple net type stuff, where we find the dirt and we build it. And then some pure retail condos, as I mentioned earlier in our discussion about those retail condos that are bifurcated on the ground floor. I have a handful of those downtown Chicago as well that I've sourced, and then had a sponsor, a client buy it now, and I would invest with them.
Ash Patel: What are your returns on your investments, typically?
Danny Spitz: My personal goal is --
Ash Patel: Sorry, your LP investments.
Danny Spitz: Yeah, similar, just like as I said, how I would want to target my LP investors for my GP deals. If I can see a path of 2x, that's my goal. Now, I'm too young to sit back and just clip coupons and wait for those percentages to come in. I want to see how to compound on my investments, right? So the way I look at it is if we can refi and get all of our equity out and hold it and decide to sell it and collect my portion of the net cash flow after each quarter, each year, that's happy for me. I don't actually count the return numbers, I just look at the total dollar amount and what the final return is.
Ash Patel: And again, I'm back to the amount of time... Do you care if it's seven years that you double your money?
Danny Spitz: I don't, but at the same time, I won't invest in that deal. Things can happen. I would like to look into a deal where I can see it turning around in less than three years. And things happen... I have a good example of an LP, a story of flex industrial [unintelligible 00:23:37.09] for a client of mine. He didn't win. I found out who won the bid, I was friends with him, a client of ours, and I asked if I can invest as a LP, because I just loved the deal, the location, etc. We thought it was a 10-year-hold. That's we thought. "Oh, this area will come up and there'll be a 10-year-hold, maybe 2x, 3x. It will be great." They executed in less than three years, and we almost 3x-ed it just by their execution, and we caught some momentum in this area, a submarket in Chicago. And all of a sudden, I was like, "Wow, what we thought we can get 10 years from now, we got it within three years."
So we get some of those sometimes, but then you get the reverse, where you think you're going to be done in two, three years and it ends up taking a lot longer.
Ash Patel: What are the up and coming areas of Chicago?
Danny Spitz: Well, it's definitely a million dollar question every time you ask that to someone in Chicago. It evolves over the decades; actually, the one behind me, in my background - this is [unintelligible 00:24:29.12] This has been the fastest and still is the fastest-growing sub-market in the country, just by pure development. It was an old meatpacking district, manufacturing district. I did a lot of business in this area, pre-recession in the 2000s, and I still do today. Some of the stuff behind me, in this photo, actually, is stuff I've worked on. But that is the most prolific neighborhood right now in Chicago. There are some upcoming areas in the Northwest side, and neighborhoods that are starting to come around... However, there's some gentrification components there that caused some pause in the city.
Ash Patel: And that meatpacking industry - it's like 15 years in the making, right? They've been trying to revive that for a long time.
Danny Spitz: Yeah, really over 20. I don't know if you're familiar with Chicago at all, but...
Ash Patel: Yeah, my wife grew up there, and I was there all the time when we were dating. And I took her to some restaurants down there, and it was on the verge of coming up, some hot restaurants, but I guess it never popped.
Danny Spitz: Yeah, now it's out of control. Google, McDonald's headquarters, you name it; everything's [unintelligible 00:25:26.24] all the restaurants, the best chefs, etc. And I lived over here and worked over here, and we used to walk around with the [unintelligible 00:25:33.27] going across the street from one place to another... It was a good time back then. It's not the same, that's for sure. But they kept a lot of the charm.
Ash Patel: Danny, over the last, I'd say, five, seven years, a ton of people have become residential realtors, and that market's starting to slow down a little bit. Would you recommend they become commercial brokers?
Danny Spitz: Yes, it's a completely different dynamic. The way I frame it is residential brokerage - you're dealing with more emotions than you're dealing with business decisions. And I was a finance major, I was a business person and worked for a bank, and it is ingrained in my brain. So for me, it was a natural fit.
I've worked with a lot of people that would try to do both, and you can't really do it. You've gotta pick up one lane and focus. And in my opinion, it's always worth giving it a shot, because it's more lucrative in the end of the day... And less populated, right? There's not many of us that do it... But the key is that if you do do it, you need to find someone to take you under their wing the way I did, and most people do; or at least have a team in place that can teach you, which is what we do here at our company as well - we help all the younger guys out and coach them along the way.
Ash Patel: Great advice. Danny, are you ready for the best ever lightning round?
Danny Spitz: Always ready.
Ash Patel: Alright. Danny, what's the best ever book you've recently read?
Danny Spitz: So I was gonna answer this question in a certain way, because "recently" is not a good term, because of my life, my three young kids... So reading has fallen off the priority list... But most recently, The Four-hour Workweek from Tim Ferriss was a book that I really liked. And my takeaway from that is not that I'm trying to work four hours a week, like the book implies, and there's ways to do it, but what I took out of the book and the readings was I learned a better way to become more efficient, work more efficiently, and be in a better mental state. And a lot of tips, a lot of points in there that I took away from that - not trying to outsource all my work to overseas and all the automation that's the point of the book, but there's a lot of little things in there that really help you focus and work better.
Ash Patel: I need to re-read that. It's been a lot of years... So thank you for that. Danny, what's the best ever way you like to give back?
Danny Spitz: Personally, I donate to numerous charities across the spectrum, whether it's my business world or my personal world. But what I'm really excited now that I'm hitting that 20-year mark and I'm going to the next 20 years is giving back to the younger generation in real estate. And we have some programs here in Chicago that we are a part of, that we donate to and that we mentor, either students who are just coming out of college in the real estate world, that we like to give back to by coaching them and mentoring them.
Ash Patel: Danny, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Danny Spitz: The easiest way is to go to our website at Greenstone-partners.com. All of our contact information is listed there. It's the easiest way to see what we do and how to get a hold of me.
Ash Patel: Danny, I've gotta thank you for your time today, sharing your experience over a 20-year career; a lot of the nuances of commercial real estate. Thank you again for your time.
Danny Spitz: Appreciate it, Ash. It was great being here.
Ash Patel: Best Ever listeners, thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. Share this episode with somebody you think can benefit from it. Also, follow, subscribe and have a best ever day!
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