Peter Neill & Ron Lockhart are the co-founders and partners at GSP REI, a vertically integrated real estate investment firm focusing on affordable and workforce single-family rentals and non-performing loans. In this episode, Peter and Ron share why they chose to build a $55 million portfolio of affordable housing and non-performing loans. They also share why they use a vertical integration approach to investing and how they are able to return an average of 20%–23% to investors annually.
Peter Neill & Ron Lockhart | Real Estate Background
- Co-founders and partners at GSP REI
- $55M in AUM including real estate and notes
- Based in: Philadelphia, PA
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie and Separation of Power by Vince Flynn
- Greatest Lesson: Treat people the way you want to be treated. Tenants, investors, colleagues — everyone.
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Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed and today I'm joined by Peter Neill and Ron Lockhart. They are based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. They are co-founders and partners of GSP REI, a vertically-integrated real estate investment firm focusing on affordable and workforce single-family rentals and non-performing loans. Their total portfolio among real estate and notes is 55 million in assets under management. Peter and Ron, can you tell us a little bit more about your backgrounds and your current focus?
Peter Neill: Sure. Slocomb and the Best Ever, we appreciate you having us on. It's an honor to be here. So I started my real estate investing journey about nine years ago, I was raising capital for a distressed mortgage investment fund. I did that for more than a few years, and then left to go on my own, and I partnered with Ron. We started GSP REI, where we focus on single family affordable and workforce housing, like you said.
So my strength and what I like to focus on in the business is on the fundraising side, building rapport with investors understanding their goals, helping them to reach their personal goals through our investment strategies, as well as just fund structuring and fund management as a whole, and everything that goes into managing our funds successfully.
Ron Lockhart: Slocomb, thank you for having us. As Peter mentioned earlier, I'm more on the operational side of the business. Peter handles the things that are not my favorite things to do. My background in real estate started almost 25 years ago; it's hard to believe I started out on the construction side of the business... And quickly that evolved into construction and investment. I've been a partner in a real estate finance company that handled both residential and commercial. I have consulted, worked with government services/entities, and our primary focus right now, which is building a single family affordable housing rental portfolio is the culmination of 20+ years of bringing that all together.
Slocomb Reed: And your partnership is primarily focused on building a portfolio of low-income and workforce single family rentals?
Ron Lockhart: Correct. And as you mentioned earlier, we also do work on the non-performing notes side. We really use that as a conduit and a pipeline, going upstream and acquiring non-performing notes that eventually will become part of the rental portfolio.
Slocomb Reed: The idea being that you're buying those notes at a discount. So either you're getting a really solid return when that borrower eventually pays or sells, or you're getting real estate at a fairly significant discount if you have to foreclose; is that the idea?
Ron Lockhart: That's correct. And we deal a lot with HECMs, which are government-backed reverse mortgages. So the foreclosure dynamic of that is a little bit different, because the owners are deceased. Our focus in acquiring notes is really not to do workouts and have performing loans. These are notes that are pretty far down the pipeline as far as defaults and the odds of there being an ongoing borrowers is pretty slim.
Slocomb Reed: You know, I've heard of a reverse mortgage and I've heard of it used as an opportunity for like an income stream for someone who is retired elderly needs that sort of income to cover living expenses, especially increased medical expenses. I have yet to meet anyone who specializes in buying those notes after those people pass, though. Logistically speaking, how does that work?
Ron Lockhart: So as far as the acquisition of that type of note -- HECMs are very specific; they're government-backed, and our one partner, [unintelligible 00:05:07.03] who isn't on the call today, is the one who specializes in the note acquisitions. We have a relationship with HUD through a nonprofit that's based in Arizona. So when we target those loans, they're government set aside auctions specific to HECMs. So it's a very specific type of note; it's not something that we focus on where we're going out looking for defaulted reverse mortgages. These are all government-backed, deceased borrowers, low-barrier to taking the property back in the end. So it's a very specific focus.
Slocomb Reed: Is your portfolio concentrated in Philadelphia then?
Ron Lockhart: The majority of our portfolio is Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.
Slocomb Reed: Maryland, New Jersey, Pennsylvania. Why those three states?
Ron Lockhart: When you were giving our intro, and the term in there, vertically integrated, is a big part of what we do in our company. We're able to touch all three of those states, physically; our construction management, our property management, our asset management, our acquisitions are all in-house. We don't outsource anything. So we want to be able to look, touch, feel whatever assets we're bringing into the portfolio.
Peter Neill: When you look at Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey, that's the bulk of where our rental portfolio is. Like Ron said, because we're vertically-integrated, we want to have our boots on the ground, we want to control the whole process from acquisition to lease and management.
The note side of the business, that's one of those things where when we get a [unintelligible 00:06:41.25] from HUD, we don't have control over where those assets are. So we're in 40 different states when it comes to that. But when it comes to our real property portfolio, we want it somewhat close to us, kind of in our backyard, so that we can be on-site and we can make sure our projects are staying on time and on budget.
Slocomb Reed: So in order to buy the notes, you have to buy the notes basically all over the country. But when it comes to the real estate that you're going to keep in your portfolio and hold longer term, you're focusing on the stuff that is close enough to you in Philly, that you can owner-operate, is that correct?
Peter Neill: Exactly. So there's other disposition strategies for notes that don't fit our workforce and affordable housing model when it comes to the rental side. So we could dispose of those in a number of different ways. But anything that fits the Philadelphia market, Baltimore, South Jersey, that's going to be something that we're going to hopefully keep within our rental portfolio, if the numbers make sense and it fits our rental model.
Slocomb Reed: With regards to overall investment thesis and business plan, not specific to any individual note or house, but with regards to the trajectory of your company, why is it that you're investing this way? Why is it that this is the business plan, the strategy that makes the most sense for you all?
Peter Neill: That's a big question. Ron, do you want me to take it and then you can add to it? So there's five things that we've determined through our own personal experience and then just research and data that we see on the market, and stuff that's available to us through different news sources and things like that. But I would argue that when you look at all real estate sectors - industrial, retail, office, multifamily, apartments, I think you could argue that affordable housing has the most demand, and the least supply. So just starting off with the demand metric - that's one thing that attracted us to affordable housing, and really, the single-family side. Multifamily affordable housing tends to be more in the studio, one-bedroom, maybe two-bedroom... And you see the demand from a tenant's perspective is typically more the two to four-bedroom.
A lot of these people have families with kids, they want this to be their home. They want a two to four-bedroom house where they can grow their family and they can live comfortably. So we saw a demand for those types of properties. And there's a lot of research that goes that way. Like Pew Research just put out something - this was maybe last year - where when you ask people about affordable housing in their communities, almost half of people out there, like 49% of people will say that there's an affordable housing crisis, or it's hard to find affordable housing.
So going into underserved markets and redeveloping properties, you can get them at a great price point, and then there's strong demand for renters that are looking for properties like that. So I would say that's definitely the main reason there's a supply and demand.
Second would be affordable housing, especially single family provides favorable yield throughout the entire economic cycle. So there's a ton of uncertainty right now in the market, with equity, with cap rates and things like that; because of the supply and demand metrics, single family affordable housing tends to stay somewhat insulated from a lot of the craziness that's going on. So when you have a certain portion of the portfolio that's subsidized, meaning the rents are coming directly from the government, it provides some stability when it comes to downturns and recessions. You don't see as much concession or rent peeling back either, like you sometimes would see in market rates during a recession or a downturn. And a lot of that too could just have to do with the demand. You'll see lower vacancy rates... So the yield -- and those rents tend to trend with market rent. And in the single family world, they could sometimes trend above market rent. So yield is another thing, and just consistency during downturns and recessions.
The third thing that kind of played along with the last one was just government subsidies. The ability for there to receive government subsidies on the majority of the assets in the portfolio provides consistent income. So there's some predictability in the income. And to kind of go off of government subsidies, for the fourth aspect, I would say, would be -- there's a lot of federal state and local impact investing goals that are towards creating more affordable housing. And that's nationwide, it's in urban areas, suburban areas, rural areas... The government, state, local and federal is trying to create incentives for investors like ourselves to go out and to rehabilitate, renovate existing units, and make them available to these types of people who need these properties.
And then fifth thing I would say is there's a low barrier to entry financially. Sometimes you can pick up properties for $10,000, $20,000, $30,000, $40,000. But there's a very high barrier to success. So you need to have very strong professional management on the construction side, on the property management side to make sure that you're successfully executing in this space, because I've seen a lot of people get in trouble if they don't know what they're doing when it comes to renovating properties that you're buying fully distressed, or even renovating value-add properties and then managing scale of single family properties as well. So I would say they're like the five main metrics that drew us into the single family affordable housing space. And then we could speak to any of those in more detail, or anything like that.
Slocomb Reed: Those points make a whole lot of sense. You guys have done a great job of describing, explaining your business model and how you execute on your business plan with it, from acquisition to rent. It is still a very complicated thing to implement, like you said. Low barrier to entry, high barrier to success. We don't need to get into specifics, especially with your acquisitions partner not being here... But it sounds like you're able to end up acquiring the physical real estate in your portfolio significantly discounted, even after you factor the renovations that these houses will require before you rent them. Bottom dollar though, what matters the most given that this is still an investment is the returns. So globally speaking, what do your returns look like executing on this business plan?
Peter Neill: Brian, is that something you wanted to --
Ron Lockhart: Sure. We can break this down... We have a very specific model that we developed over a period of time. And we didn't want to look at this as just a six month period or a one month period; we wanted to do this over a number of years. So from approximately 2018 through 2019, we really honed in on what our sweet spot was, and what markets were the best targets to achieve the returns we were looking for. And to go back to something you said a minute ago about buying at a discount - that is a component of our model, but also, the way we operate and the fact that we maintain control of the construction and property management in-house, and specifically the construction management, we can carve about 20% to 25% of that cost out. Or we can lower our costs by 20%, 25%, which makes the model more workable. And on average - and this takes, geographically, whether it be Pennsylvania and New Jersey or Maryland, on average, acquisition and construction, we want to be into a property for no more than $115,000 per door. Those properties per door, on average, appraise at about $165,000 per door. After refinance, and after debt service, all expenses, we're averaging between $300 to $400 net profit per door. And that's the model, and that's what we've developed over time. And we've been able now to sustain it for the better part of five years. So on a per-door basis, that's what our return looks like.
Slocomb Reed: Peter, Ron, the Best Ever podcast is a daily podcast, generally with an emphasis on commercial real estate, and we have a very sophisticated listener base. The majority of our listeners are passive investors in real estate syndications; they are people who are looking to deploy capital for a return. And that's simply a numbers game. There are way more LPs in the world than there are GPs. The active investors that we interview, the vast majority of them will say that as you become a more competent, experienced, sophisticated investor, you should scale; you have to scale the property size as your portfolio grows, because operating on a 100-unit apartment building is exponentially simpler than operating on 100 units in 100 different single family homes. Not to mention the number of roofs, plumbing systems, mechanical systems that you would have in those single family homes is so much greater. Generally speaking, your margins will end up being less, because there's so much more physical real estate to take care of by comparison.
You guys have very intentionally decided to not go that route. And that's where my questions are coming from here. I want our listeners to understand why it is that you're looking at working with a generally speaking difficult tenant base, in generally speaking difficult real estate to manage when it comes to maintenance, renovations, CapEx. The returns make a lot of sense. Peter, you've introduced yourself as an investment manager or capital raiser. I imagine you do your capital raising in funds. What are the projected returns, or what are the returns that you've been able to execute on for your investors thus far?
Peter Neill: So we launched our first fund in November of 2019, and a few months after that we launched our second fund. And how we started was fixed rate funds. So we just paid a fixed rate of return for a fixed term. So for one year, we would pay 9%. For a three year hold, we would pay 10%. And then we had a 12% offering as well.
So we've been able to pay those consistent promised preferred returns since inception without an issue. It was one thing from raising capital for over nine years now - and I've always raised capital for fixed rate funds. And so just a fixed term, a fixed rate for a fixed term, one thing that's constantly come up is how can I get upside? How can I share in the tax advantages? Because there's two types of investors out there. There's people who just want consistent passive income on a monthly basis, and then there's people who want the upside. They don't need the consistent monthly income, or they don't need a ton of consistent monthly income. They are already working their W-2 job, or they have investments that are yielding them plenty of income on a monthly basis, so they're looking for upside, they're looking for tax advantage, and stuff like that. So we went to the drawing board and we looked at our model and what we've actually done over the past couple of years, and we looked at it as "What would it look like if we shared that profit and equity with our investors, and not just did a straight fixed percent preferred return?" So we looked at everything that we've done and we ran it under a model, we stress-tested it, so we took the rents down, we brought our interest rates up, we took our property values down... So we stress-tested it in a million different ways, and we said if we paid our investors a 6% preferred return on a monthly basis - so they're still getting some consistent monthly income - and then we split the profit 50/50, and we split the equity 50/50. And the profit sharing would be semi-annually, so they would receive a check if profit was available every six months. And then their equity piece would be returned when they redeem, within a five to seven-year period, with some ability to get out earlier if they would like, and some potential of staying later if they would like to do that as well.
And what we've came up with through the model was at average, if we raise $5 million, and we refinance once a year -- because unlike a lot of the commercial strategies, this isn't a disposition strategy. This is a generational type wealth-building portfolio that we're putting together. We do not plan to sell; not that we don't look for opportunities and things like that, but the three of us some partners really agree on the long-term hold strategy. So we're able to create liquidity and bring capital back into the fund through refinances. So we modeled it at one refinance a year, whereas typically we would like to see at least two to four.
So our average annual return - it came out to around 20% to 23%. The average cash yield on an annual basis for five years was around 8% to 11%, and the equity multiple was about 2.5 to 2.8 times the initial investment at five years. So those are the returns that we're projecting in what we call our growth fund, so the fund that shares the upside and tax advantage, and has that structure to the investors.
Slocomb Reed: Is that equity multiple after five years of two and a half to two point eight, does that assume -- not necessarily that you have sold, but that your investors have effectively been bought out or paid out of their investment?
Peter Neill: Exactly. And that includes everything. So that adds up the preferred return they made, the profits they made, and then their equity piece when they redeemed at the end.
Slocomb Reed: That definitely starts to answer my question. Thank you, Peter. Because that's a much higher equity multiple and AAR than you often see with the kinds of multifamily syndications that I was just describing, that most people will tell active investors that they need to get into. So that makes a lot of sense.
Peter Neill: And two, Slocomb, to speak to what you were saying - one of the reasons we do what we do is because that's what we're built to do. We don't want to go to the other side of the country or something like that and find a value-add multifamily, and manage it from a distance, and work with a property manager or a construction manager. We want to be our own property manager and our own construction manager. So why we're in Philadelphia, Baltimore, South Jersey, is because that's where we're from. Those are markets that we know really well; we grew up there. When we drive around, we know where we're at, we've seen the evolution of those areas for many, many years... So that was really substantial in choosing the markets that we invest in. Ron went to school in Maryland, and had friends that stayed in that area, so when we went into that market, we knew people; we were able to tap into our existing network and spend a lot of time there before we ever deployed any capital there, or anything like that. And it's where our crews are. Fortunately, Ron has construction crews, and some guys who have been with him for 15 years or so. So we have roots in the areas that we invest in, we have our crews, so we've been able to scale in those areas. And then through technology that we've implemented, we were able to increase our portfolio over time, but keep in our timeframe and our budgets and make sure we're taking things slowly. It's not like we're looking to get from 100 units to 10,000 units overnight. We want to do things right, and there's a certainly a progression to it. It's not that we wouldn't go into other markets and stuff like that, it's just we feel that there's plenty of opportunity in the markets that we're in, and they're all close to us, where we can be there relatively within a two-hour drive or less. So that has been a big part of defining our strategy over the past couple of years.
Ron Lockhart: Just to tie back to, Slocomb, something you brought up earlier - scale. And Peter just mentioned it again. We get asked this question a lot - if you're going to stick with these markets, are you going to run out of assets to acquire and develop, and then subsequently run out? I'm gonna give you an example. I'll use Baltimore. They have a backlog of voucher holders. And I'm not just talking about Section 8, I'm not talking about across the affordable housing spectrum. They have a backlog of thousands and thousands of voucher holders that don't have a home to live in. So the demand is so high there... We could work there the next few years and we wouldn't even begin to scratch the surface.
On the acquisition side of things, we have a number of different avenues for acquiring the assets. One of them is auction houses. We have a relationship with an auction house in Baltimore that sells about 1,000 properties per year, that are in complete disrepair, full renovation, totally dilapidated, properties that fit the type of unit that we're looking for. And that's just in Baltimore. Philadelphia, it's the same thing. There's just a huge backlog and demand for the affordable housing. Southern New Jersey, which is closest to us, where we own the majority of our properties in New Jersey - same story. So we could work in these areas for the next 10 years, and we'd still have a lot of work to do.
Peter Neill: And to add to that point, I would say one thing that Ron and myself and our other partner, Wade, that we get along in, is that we're all what I would call contrarian type investors. When everybody's off doing one thing, we're looking for "What else can we do?" Especially with Baltimore, Baltimore gets a bad rep. And just affordable housing in general, there's a lot of misconceptions when it comes to the tenants, and the amount of work, or the amount of damage they could do to a property, or something like that. Those misconceptions create a ton of opportunity for us. So when I go to an investor event, or I speak to an investor, and they're afraid of Baltimore, or they're afraid of subsidized housing, affordable housing, period - that's where I see opportunity.
I know we need to pivot our model, when we go to an investor event, and people are heavy in Baltimore, or heavy in subsidized housing, because you kind of know the tides are changing at that point. And I think that goes back to the one thing I said earlier, where there's a low barrier to entry when it comes to financial; you don't need a ton of money to get started in this space. But there's a very high barrier to entry when it comes to success. And you have to have certain things in place from a management perspective in order to be successful when you're managing distressed property. And that's the same in market rate, or if you were renovating a warehouse, or something like that, too. But in this space, especially when managing tenants and stuff like that, you have to have a certain level of professionalism and experience in order to execute effectively. So that's a good reason too why there's not a ton of competition when it comes to the markets that we're in. We see people, consistent players, and we see some mom and pops where it's one of our strategies, it's kind of like a roll-up strategy, buying portfolios from smaller investors who have grown them over time, and are looking to get out of them. So the markets we're in, and the place that we play in has a lot to do with what we like, and just our strategy, and where we see opportunities to be able to get those types of yields that we've been getting.
Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. In the interest of time, I'm going to make some assumptions here. Answer on your behalf the questions I want to ask; tell me where I am, right, tell me where I'm wrong, and then we'll transition the conversation. My next question would be, given the complexity to this strategy, and yes, Ron at least has been working towards this for 25 years, it sounds like... And by no means do I want to over simplify what it takes to do what it is to execute on your strategies... My last question was "What do returns look like for your investors?" and the returns that you mentioned were above average, they were above the returns that most people were targeting; you're talking about 2019. The 2019 investing landscape was very different from 2023 when we're recording now, but your metrics were still above average for syndicated real estate funds at the time.
Follow up-question - I'm an active investor. A lot of our listeners are, too. What do the returns look like for you, or why would you structure, as the active partners in this, why would you structure your deals this way? And the answer that I'm coming to is that you've developed a strategy that allows you to amass a portfolio and deliver a return to investors, buy those investors out, and keep the portfolio after delivering on that return for the long-term. Is that correct?
Ron Lockhart: That's correct.
Slocomb Reed: Personally, I find that very appealing, because my investment goals end up being on that Warren Buffett hold forever style of goals and strategy. That makes a lot of sense. Y'all ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?
Peter Neill: Let's do it!
Slocomb Reed: What is the Best Ever book each of y'all recently read?
Peter Neill: Every year for the past nine years I think I've been reading How to Win Friends and Influence People. And as a fundraiser, as somebody who's responsible for keeping those relationships with investors, that is a book that I constantly come back to. And just recently, I did my annual read through of that book.
Ron Lockhart: I could give you a book from the past that I read, but I'm going to be perfectly honest with you - with four kids, and this business, I don't have a whole lot of time to read. So when I do - and again, it's not often - it's something that actually takes my mind off of this, because I spend so much time researching the markets... So it would have to be "Separation of power" by Vince Flynn, which is a fiction book. So it definitely doesn't have to do with our industry, but it helps me clear my head.
Slocomb Reed: What are your Best Ever ways to give back?
Peter Neill: Right now, my focus has been giving back to the two people that gave me the most, which is my parents. So they're up there in age, and as they've gotten older, they've had certain health issues pop up, and things like that... So anytime I can, I'm trying to give back to them, whether it just be spending time with them, but also helping with the groceries and cooking and stuff they need around the house and things like that. So a lot of time recently has been given back to them, and it's an honor to help them, because they've helped me so much over the years just in life, and growing this business, and all; they've always been there to support me, and that kind of thing.
Ron Lockhart: Yeah, my answer is kind of twofold. In this business, we meet a lot of investors who are passive, who want to move beyond passive, and do some of the things that we do. So when people come to me with those questions, I try and take as much time as I possibly can to help educate them on the process. In 20 plus years of doing this, I've made a lot of mistakes; I've certainly had my share of failures. So if I can help somebody bypass some of that, I certainly like to do that.
And then the other thing is, working in the affordable housing space, I've developed a soft spot for the plight of what a lot of people in this country are facing. And we really do have an affordable housing crisis, and a homeless crisis. I work in somewhat of an advisory role, with an outreach program in Rio Grande, New Jersey, that helps with the homeless problem in that area, and also transitional housing. So in any way that I can be helpful to them from an advisory standpoint, I like to think we're helping to solve some of that problem in some small way.
Slocomb Reed: Question for each of you, again - on the deals that you've done, funds that you have funded, houses that you have acquired, what is the biggest mistake you've made, and the Best Ever lesson that resulted from it?
Peter Neill: I'll take it from a capital raising perspective... And I've heard other people say this, I'm not making this up. When's the best time to start raising capital? It's like the planting a tree thing, where they say, "When's the best time to plant a tree?"
Slocomb Reed: It's 20 years ago.
Peter Neill: Yeah, exactly. So I would just say, if you're looking to get into this business, and you want to grow and expand, start building those relationships now, and just stay in touch with people and create consistent contact, find ways to stay in touch with people, because that's been my thing, is you get so busy in just the management and the day-to-day of growing a business from the top down, that you can forget to stay in touch with people, and let them know what you're doing; keep them updated, and things like that. Because when you do have an opportunity that comes by, you're going to need capital for it, and you're going to wish that you stayed in touch, and that kind of thing. So I would say just creating consistent content, staying in touch with people, so you have the capital necessary to take advantage of the opportunities you see.
Ron Lockhart: Yeah, and again, I'm gonna give you a two-part answer here. And they both tie into why we've developed the strategy that we have. One, taking a long-term strategy, and seeing the forest through the trees, building the portfolio that you hold and not sell. If I could go back and talk to my 28, 29, 30-year old self and say "All those properties you acquired early on, that you ended up selling because you thought you were making a nice profit - don't do that. Hold them. Because you bought right, you developed right." So that will be one.
The other thing is the first time having a construction background, prior to 2008 I decided to go ahead and take a chance and give some general contractors the opportunity to do our work for us. And it was an absolute disaster when I let go of that control and let somebody else do that. We didn't hit our numbers, our timelines. And again, that's another reason why we do things the way we do today.
Slocomb Reed: And what is your Best Ever advice?
Peter Neill: I would say just as simple as treat people the way that you want to be treated. When you're dealing with tenants, when you're dealing with investors, when you're dealing with other people, business colleagues, your partners, just always try to put yourself in the other person's shoes and make decisions based off of that. Because if you're good to people, I'd like to think that they can be good to you as well. But also understand too that everybody is in their own place, and we can't know what's going on in their own personal life... So treat people the way that you want to be treated, but at the same time, keep your head on straight and do what you have to do, and don't get too bogged down with if somebody doesn't reciprocate and treat you the way that you wish to be treated as well. So stay out of your head there, and let's do the right thing, and this way you could sleep at night and know that you did your best and you were good to everybody along the way.
Ron Lockhart: Yeah, I think that's a good answer. Just to expand on it a little bit - you're never better than anybody else. And the day you start thinking you are is not a good thing. We're all always learning, we're all evolving, whether it's in life or in business; it's a process. And there are lessons to take away from everything. Just be humble, be honest, and have integrity.
Slocomb Reed: That makes a lot of sense. Where can people get in touch with you?
Peter Neill: Sure. It's GSPrei.com. Our phone number's on there. You can call or text us. My email address is on there. You can email me anytime. You could schedule a time with us through there, and you could join our email list. We do calls on a regular basis, open to investors, if they have questions and things like that. So yeah, I would say start with our website, and you can get all the info you need to contact us there.
Slocomb Reed: That link is in the show notes. Peter, Ron, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this episode, please do subscribe to our show, leave us a five star review and share this episode with the friends you know we can add value to through our conversation today. Thank you, and have a Best Ever day.
Peter Neill: Awesome. Slocomb, thank you so much, and we appreciate everybody listening. Thank you.
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